Are vegan restaurants actually vegan?

[iago]

Cows' milk has to be used, or they're uncomfortable. And guess what? In nature, humans wouldn't milk them. Who else do cows produce milk for? Their babies!

That's right: cows' babies are supposed to drink their milk. In most scenarios, cows' babies are taken away and either killed and disposed of, turned into veal, or grown up without their parents to produce more milk. The males are always killed or turned into food.

Chickens is the same thing -- at the Calgary zoo they have piles of dead baby chickens. After they're born, the male chicks are all killed and given to the zoo to feed the birds.

So yes, if cows aren't milked it's uncomfortable, but the milk is supposed to go to their babies, not to humans.

You say "in most scenarios".  What about the other situations?  Also not all the babies can be taken away.  They still need cows.

Also, I don't think that is common practice with chickens on smaller farms.  In fact, many people will just have hen houses on their properties, strictly for egg laying.  Regardless of whether or not this is a natural environment for them, I don't think there is any evidence they are suffering.

I saw "in most scenarios" because some farms are more respectful of animals -- but their meat tends to be far more expensive, and few people buy it. And I'm aware they don't take away all babies -- I even said so in the same sentence as the one you're referring to :P

I agree, smaller farms tend to be less cruel. But I looked up the statistics at one point, and more than 80% of our meat and dairy comes from factory farms, which treat animals poorly. Even at smaller farms, though, when an animal is too old to produce milk/eggs, they're rarely kept around -- financial, it makes no sense to keep feeding them.

Even beyond obvious suffering of animals in factory farms and the like, I don't agree with imprisoning them for their whole lives, treating them like objects that can be bought and sold, and taking/selling the products they produce without giving them a fair cut, as it were. I mean, with humans, it would be considered cruel treatment or even slavery, but with animals it's par for the course. That doesn't seem right to me. :)

[Rule]

Even beyond obvious suffering of animals in factory farms and the like, I don't agree with imprisoning them for their whole lives, treating them like objects that can be bought and sold, and taking/selling the products they produce without giving them a fair cut, as it were. I mean, with humans, it would be considered cruel treatment or even slavery, but with animals it's par for the course. That doesn't seem right to me. :)

If someone keeps hens in their yard, and these hens happen to lay infertile eggs that people can eat, what is wrong with eating them?  To do otherwise would be a waste.  And really, what's the alternative for the hen?  To go out into the wild? 

It really couldn't live a better life, practically speaking.  In this situation, would you still be opposed to using the eggs?

[d&q]

Actually a lot of the chicks still get killed because you really only need one or two cocks to fertilize a house.

That holds true for humans as well

[iago]

Even beyond obvious suffering of animals in factory farms and the like, I don't agree with imprisoning them for their whole lives, treating them like objects that can be bought and sold, and taking/selling the products they produce without giving them a fair cut, as it were. I mean, with humans, it would be considered cruel treatment or even slavery, but with animals it's par for the course. That doesn't seem right to me. :)

If someone keeps hens in their yard, and these hens happen to lay infertile eggs that people can eat, what is wrong with eating them?  To do otherwise would be a waste.  And really, what's the alternative for the hen?  To go out into the wild? 

It really couldn't live a better life, practically speaking.  In this situation, would you still be opposed to using the eggs?

There's a line somewhere between collecting infertile eggs in the wild (clearly hurting nothing) to imprisoning them and forcing them to produce eggs till they can't anymore and killing them (clearly cruel) -- it's all about where you draw the line.

If you had pet chickens that you treat well and you eat eggs that wouldn't hatch anyways, it's probably not that bad (still gross, in my mind, but at least not cruel). As long as you aren't treating them as slaves or as property. :)

[Rule]

If you had pet chickens that you treat well and you eat eggs that wouldn't hatch anyways, it's probably not that bad (still gross, in my mind, but at least not cruel).

Would you eat eggs, in this situation? :P.

I agree it's not cruel, the chickens couldn't practically hope for a better existence. 

The gross thing is probably an artefact of having been vegan for awhile.  I imagine you didn't find it gross beforehand, and either way, if you did, you didn't let it deter you. 

[iago]

Would you eat eggs, in this situation? :P.

I agree it's not cruel, the chickens couldn't practically hope for a better existence. 

The gross thing is probably an artefact of having been vegan for awhile.  I imagine you didn't find it gross beforehand, and either way, if you did, you didn't let it deter you. 

The gross thing is why I *became* vegan. I originally didn't find it gross, till I really thought about it. Once I sort of put things into perspective (and I did this myself, I didn't read any vegan blogs/literature/whatever till long after I made the change), the grossness was obvious.

Eggs are basically embryonic fluid of a bird. Milk is even worse -- I liken drinking cows milk to giving a blowjob to a bull, but people tend to frown on that comparison. :) (and I'll admit it's a pretty invalid comparison, too, but either way, I don't want to drink bodily fluids of animals)

[Armin]

The only "gross" factors that could turn me off to food, are health or moral. Not even fried squid eye (they pop in your mouth) bothers me. Anything else is in the head.

[Rule]

The 'grossness' here is illogical.  It is a mental artifact.  If we were to govern our decisions based on 'grossness', we could easily kill ourselves with antibiotics, etc.  What makes something gross?

[iago]

The 'grossness' here is illogical.  It is a mental artifact.  If we were to govern our decisions based on 'grossness', we could easily kill ourselves with antibiotics, etc.  What makes something gross?

I think something is gross when it comes from the inside of another animal, and is involved in their reproductive process. That seems logical enough to me. Milk and eggs both fit that criteria.

I don't consider germs and such gross, in general. They're pretty natural.

[Rule]

The 'grossness' here is illogical.  It is a mental artifact.  If we were to govern our decisions based on 'grossness', we could easily kill ourselves with antibiotics, etc.  What makes something gross?

I think something is gross when it comes from the inside of another animal, and is involved in their reproductive process. That seems logical enough to me. Milk and eggs both fit that criteria.

I don't consider germs and such gross, in general. They're pretty natural.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't understand how it is logical. 

[while1]

I eat in terms of efficiency.

It's much easier for me to get my daily protein and other essential nutrients from animal products than not.  Secondary to this comes taste.

I don't condone cruelty to animals, but there's a certain point where I believe our superiority over other species grants us the privilege to eat them.  Survival of the fittest.

[Rule]

I don't condone cruelty to animals, but there's a certain point where I believe our superiority over other species grants us the privilege to eat them.  Survival of the fittest.

What do you mean by superiority?  Choose any sensible metric, and I'll find a human who doesn't fit it.

[while1]

Intelligence.  And I'm speaking in terms of a species as a whole.  Go on and choose the outliers and sure, it's not 100%, some mentally handicap may be less intelligence than a bovine.

You don't see cows, chickens, etc. driving around, learning how to read, write, do math, etc.  Our capacity to learn and relate experiences with knowledge makes us superior.

Although I would object adamantly, I wouldn't blame aliens if they came and wanted to harvest our bodies or obliterate us and conquer our planet.  Survival of the fittest.  If they have the means of our destruction and we cannot defend ourselves, then so be it.

[Rule]

Intelligence.  And I'm speaking in terms of a species as a whole.  Go on and choose the outliers and sure, it's not 100%, some mentally handicap may be less intelligence than a bovine.

You don't see cows, chickens, etc. driving around, learning how to read, write, do math, etc.  Our capacity to learn and relate experiences with knowledge makes us superior.

Many animals -- wolves, dolphins, elephants, etc. -- are in some ways much smarter on the whole than humans. 

But that debate aside, would you eat mentally retarded humans?  Do you think you have the privilege to eat mentally retarded humans?  And should those humans who are significantly more intelligent than you, have the privilege to kill you?

Although I would object adamantly, I wouldn't blame aliens if they came and wanted to harvest our bodies or obliterate us and conquer our planet.  Survival of the fittest.  If they have the means of our destruction and we cannot defend ourselves, then so be it.

So you couldn't blame Hitler and the Nazis for killing Jews?  Survival of the fittest

[iago]

My friend always says he'll eat anything that can't take. That includes babies and retarded people. He's ok with that. *shrug*