Are vegan restaurants actually vegan?

[while1]

Really, I act ethically and morally because it's what society expects of me.

Hi, Billy May's here!

TOO SOON.

/cries

[iago]

So the only reason you don't murder and consume humans, puppies, and babies is because of society?

Either you have some serious issues, or you haven't thought this through completely.

I do my best to discover (and, when appropriate, fight) the brainwashing received by society. One of those things is that it's ok to enslave animals -- I reject that notion, despite the fact that I've been conditioned to believe otherwise. It sounds like if you went through the same process, you'd become a sociopath.

[deadly7]

I do my best to discover (and, when appropriate, fight) the brainwashing received by society. One of those things is that it's ok to enslave animals -- I reject that notion, despite the fact that I've been conditioned to believe otherwise. It sounds like if you went through the same process, you'd become a sociopath.

Don't you have a pet dog?

[iago]

I do my best to discover (and, when appropriate, fight) the brainwashing received by society. One of those things is that it's ok to enslave animals -- I reject that notion, despite the fact that I've been conditioned to believe otherwise. It sounds like if you went through the same process, you'd become a sociopath.

Don't you have a pet dog?

Nope.

But you can have an animal companion without enslaving it -- it's all about treating them right.

[Blaze]

I do my best to discover (and, when appropriate, fight) the brainwashing received by society. One of those things is that it's ok to enslave animals -- I reject that notion, despite the fact that I've been conditioned to believe otherwise. It sounds like if you went through the same process, you'd become a sociopath.

Don't you have a pet dog?

Nope.

But you can have an animal companion without enslaving it -- it's all about treating them right.

I disagree.  The moment you don't let your pet go where ever it wants, it's no longer free.

[iago]

I do my best to discover (and, when appropriate, fight) the brainwashing received by society. One of those things is that it's ok to enslave animals -- I reject that notion, despite the fact that I've been conditioned to believe otherwise. It sounds like if you went through the same process, you'd become a sociopath.

Don't you have a pet dog?

Nope.

But you can have an animal companion without enslaving it -- it's all about treating them right.

I disagree.  The moment you don't let your pet go where ever it wants, it's no longer free.

What if the alternative is worse, though? Like, being put down for not having a home or having an abusive home?

I'm pretty sure pets are an area of debate among vegans, anyways. I personally don't want one, so it isn't really an issue for me. I definitely wouldn't get one I had to put in a cage/confined space, though (like a rabbit, bird, fish, whatever) -- that seems much too restrictive. Keeping a dog/cat in a decently sized house or yard? Not sure.

[Rule]

I do my best to discover (and, when appropriate, fight) the brainwashing received by society. One of those things is that it's ok to enslave animals -- I reject that notion, despite the fact that I've been conditioned to believe otherwise. It sounds like if you went through the same process, you'd become a sociopath.

Don't you have a pet dog?

Nope.

But you can have an animal companion without enslaving it -- it's all about treating them right.

I disagree.  The moment you don't let your pet go where ever it wants, it's no longer free.

What if the alternative is worse, though? Like, being put down for not having a home or having an abusive home?

I'm pretty sure pets are an area of debate among vegans, anyways. I personally don't want one, so it isn't really an issue for me. I definitely wouldn't get one I had to put in a cage/confined space, though (like a rabbit, bird, fish, whatever) -- that seems much too restrictive. Keeping a dog/cat in a decently sized house or yard? Not sure.

I think you can develop a great relationship with certain pets, and make them very happy.  I think in most cases having pets (and treating them well) undoubtedly HELPS further animal causes.... the more people are aware of and exposed to other animals, the more they sympathize with them.

Also, no-one is free, not even us.  And especially not children.  Do they get to go wherever they want?  Note that animals are not free in the wild either.

[iago]

Sort of related.. this is a great document:
http://www.petaliterature.com/VEG297.pdf

Among other things, it talks about the lives that the different types of animals (grown for meat/dairy/eggs) live in captivity. This is one of my favourite parts:

Scientists in the United Kingdom discovered that cows enjoy solving problems and even experience "Eureka!" moments (in which their heart rate speeds up, their adrenaline flows, and they jump) when they are successful—just like human beings. Cows also interact in socially complex ways, so that a herd of cows is very much like a pack of wolves, with alpha animals and complex social dynamics, including friendships that develop over time.

Another interesting story I read today is how an "emergency" law prevents milk manufacturers from telling the truth:
http://truefoodnow.org/2009/07/13/groups-urge-ohio-governor-to-repeal-emergency-decision-on-milk-labeling/

[Camel]

In a world without consequences and social restrictions, I'd probably think differently and consider eradicating humans that don't contribute to society.  i.e. homeless.  Unfortunately, unlike other species, humans have this thing called morals, laws, etc.

I just watched this episode of TNG last night where Geordi saved an entire planet from destruction with the technology in his visor. The ironic part was that the inhabitants of the planet were genetically engineered humans; if he'd been conceived on that planet, he'd have been terminated as an embryo.

[Towelie]

Cows' milk has to be used, or they're uncomfortable. And guess what? In nature, humans wouldn't milk them. Who else do cows produce milk for? Their babies!

That's right: cows' babies are supposed to drink their milk. In most scenarios, cows' babies are taken away and either killed and disposed of, turned into veal, or grown up without their parents to produce more milk. The males are always killed or turned into food.

...
So yes, if cows aren't milked it's uncomfortable, but the milk is supposed to go to their babies, not to humans.

Have you actually been to a dairy farm? I have. How do you know that most of the babies are killed/disposed of? Maybe the males are mostly killed, but the bull is only introduced when they want a baby cow. Its not like they roam around having tons of babies. Either way, I don't see how drinking milk has anything to do with this, just don't eat veal/beef. But now we are just getting into personal preferences/ideals, no need to argue over stuff like that :)

[iago]

Cows' milk has to be used, or they're uncomfortable. And guess what? In nature, humans wouldn't milk them. Who else do cows produce milk for? Their babies!

That's right: cows' babies are supposed to drink their milk. In most scenarios, cows' babies are taken away and either killed and disposed of, turned into veal, or grown up without their parents to produce more milk. The males are always killed or turned into food.

...
So yes, if cows aren't milked it's uncomfortable, but the milk is supposed to go to their babies, not to humans.

Have you actually been to a dairy farm? I have. How do you know that most of the babies are killed/disposed of? Maybe the males are mostly killed, but the bull is only introduced when they want a baby cow. Its not like they roam around having tons of babies. Either way, I don't see how drinking milk has anything to do with this, just don't eat veal/beef. But now we are just getting into personal preferences/ideals, no need to argue over stuff like that :)

Do you listen? 80% of meat/milk in Canada (last time I checked) doesn't come from dairy farms, it comes from factory farms. Look up info (especially that pamphlet I posted) what a factory farm is.

[Towelie]

Cows' milk has to be used, or they're uncomfortable. And guess what? In nature, humans wouldn't milk them. Who else do cows produce milk for? Their babies!

That's right: cows' babies are supposed to drink their milk. In most scenarios, cows' babies are taken away and either killed and disposed of, turned into veal, or grown up without their parents to produce more milk. The males are always killed or turned into food.

...
So yes, if cows aren't milked it's uncomfortable, but the milk is supposed to go to their babies, not to humans.

Have you actually been to a dairy farm? I have. How do you know that most of the babies are killed/disposed of? Maybe the males are mostly killed, but the bull is only introduced when they want a baby cow. Its not like they roam around having tons of babies. Either way, I don't see how drinking milk has anything to do with this, just don't eat veal/beef. But now we are just getting into personal preferences/ideals, no need to argue over stuff like that :)

Do you listen? 80% of meat/milk in Canada (last time I checked) doesn't come from dairy farms, it comes from factory farms. Look up info (especially that pamphlet I posted) what a factory farm is.

This seems to support the fact that milk is alright to drink... dairy cows aren't good for meat.

[iago]

This seems to support the fact that milk is alright to drink... dairy cows aren't good for meat.

There are lots of reasons against that, many of which I already spelled out in this thread.

The one glaring issue with your statement is that the male babies of dairy cows are sold as veal. So drinking milk totally supports the meat industry.

[deadly7]

But you can have an animal companion without enslaving it -- it's all about treating them right.

The crux of your argument to me seems like you object to using animals in "unnatural" situations where they are placed into environments in which they originally would not have existed. Hence, shouldn't you be morally opposed to animals being kept as pets, as that is not natural?

[Towelie]

This seems to support the fact that milk is alright to drink... dairy cows aren't good for meat.

There are lots of reasons against that, many of which I already spelled out in this thread.

The one glaring issue with your statement is that the male babies of dairy cows are sold as veal. So drinking milk totally supports the meat industry.

So why eat corn? The leftover stuff that isn't sold to stores is ground up and fed to the cows, which promotes the meat industry by your logic.