The Fruit of the Vine (Poetry)

[Tuberload]

This being said, I think unconditional skepticism almost requires atheism.  There is no tangible evidence for the existence of God (to my knowledge -- feel free to prove me wrong).  I'm familiar with the usual apologetic arguments, and a few of the less common ones.  Every single one of them is terrible to the point of it being vaguely pathetic.  Because of this, I reject the notion of a God.  Unlike many theists (and atheists), I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist, because I don't think anyone has knowledge pertaining to the existence of a god.

Epistemological knowledge is as you put it the only real knowledge there is and this quote states you do not believe anyone can produce any such knowledge concerning the existence of God. So if this is the case how can you make a statement that God probably does not exist with out some kind of faith being put into practice? Please stay focused on what I am saying Sidoh. I believe you are intelligent, and I am not concerned with whether or not this community thinks that I am, so please spend a little less time trying to establish such premises.

[Sidoh]

This being said, I think unconditional skepticism almost requires atheism.  There is no tangible evidence for the existence of God (to my knowledge -- feel free to prove me wrong).  I'm familiar with the usual apologetic arguments, and a few of the less common ones.  Every single one of them is terrible to the point of it being vaguely pathetic.  Because of this, I reject the notion of a God.  Unlike many theists (and atheists), I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist, because I don't think anyone has knowledge pertaining to the existence of a god.

Epistemological knowledge is as you put it the only real knowledge there is and this quote states you do not believe anyone can produce any such knowledge concerning the existence of God. So if this is the case how can you make a statement that God probably does not exist with out some kind of faith being put into practice? Please stay focused on what I am saying Sidoh. I believe you are intelligent, and I am not concerned with whether or not this community thinks that I am, so please spend a little less time trying to establish such premises.

Did you read the link I posted?  I didn't "lose focus".  You didn't read my post.

[Tuberload]

Yes I read the post, and I understand the point of shifting the burden of proof. It wasn't my intention to argue the supposed necessity of faith in atheism although I certainly see how my inability to relate my thoughts has given it that appearance; rather I was making it clear that what you hold to is a joke as far as I am concerned and all of your attempts to discredit me will have absolutely no effect on what I am doing.

You hold to something that is more probable because you lack an encounter with God which I myself and thousands of others claim to have had and continue to have. It is not indoctrination that I am holding to; it is a supernatural revealing of a God who refuses to prove Himself to you according to your definitions but has responded to the genuine faith of many.

I could relay a multitude of experiences in which the Holy Spirit in the form of a voice or a dream or a vision has told me a thing was going to happen, and it did. I am talking times, places and events. I could tell you of miracles I have witnessed with my own eyes. I could go on and on, and odds are you would not believe me or you'd just skirt around them and stick to your box that God must prove Himself within but has refused.

Whether you like it or not according to both the objective faith I hold as well as my subjective experience He is not going to do that, and therefore our arguments are unfruitful in the work God has called me to, and the means by which He is going to fulfill his purposes in this world. Understand that I am not going to follow you down the path that you are trying to lead period, and all your comments to try and make me look inapt mean nothing to me.

Such philosophies are certainly stripping the faith out of a Christian who has had nothing more than some mental agreement with what the Bible claims to be true or have clung to the corrupt traditions of the church, but for those of us who have had dramatic experiences of which the Bible defines as the norm for the true believer your arguments will not strip us of our allegiance to the living God. You assume that because such a high percentage of the western world and in particular America claims to be Christian that they are in fact actually saved and recognized by God as a son or daughter in His kingdom and submitted to Christ. I do not hold to that assumption, and actually believe that the converts to Christ in said Middle Eastern and Asian countries are actually of a higher percentage of true disciples.

Within the boundaries of my profession all of your arguments are irrelevant because it is not how God has chosen to operate according to both experience and that which has been objectively revealed in His word. As far as I am concerned my experience, and the experience of people who I know and don't know around the world are sufficient. Do you still not get that I do not care about everything you continue to post, and that I am sticking with the argument that God is in fact revealing Himself and granting people encounters in response to there faith?

I do believe that a supernatural being can and often is behind popular mythology and or prominent religions. I also believe revelatory experiences are possible if I had put faith or called out to one of them. Yahweh is however the creator of all, and the supernatural beings who fell from there original place in His kingdom are now responsible for deceiving the world. There is a lot out there that is nothing more than the imagination of the human mind, and there is a lot that could potentially be real, but once again not deterministic to my profession.

If God has defined the context in which you or Muslims or anyone else may enter into an encounter with Him and that is rejected, whether because of some innate tendency or not, it says nothing about the love of God. Man lives according to his own free will and these innate tendencies are sin and God will not accept them. Gods love could be better seen in what He is doing today despite mans choice to continually reject His terms of salvation. Therefore what I am saying about the supernatural evangelism of Jesus Christ in the Muslim world which has fiercely rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ and Gods opened invitation to live for eternity is in fact relevant to my profession. It is relevant because there is widespread claimed encounters with God through Jesus Christ that match the experiences I claim to have. This is the road I am going to continue to walk, and it will not be a work of my own hands but rather a partnering with God as He continues to move in the supernatural in response to genuine faith.

This is the parting of our ways as you will continue to tread your path and I mine. Yes I believe we will all stand before the bema seat of Christ, and while not sure I necessarily hold to traditional doctrines or descriptions of hell I absolutely believe God will be just in sentencing people to an eternity of separation from Himself. It's His will, not mine and not yours.

[Sidoh]

Yes I read the post, and I understand the point of shifting the burden of proof. It wasn't my intention to argue the supposed necessity of faith in atheism although I certainly see how my inability to relate my thoughts has given it that appearance; rather I was making it clear that what you hold to is a joke as far as I am concerned and all of your attempts to discredit me will have absolutely no effect on what I am doing.

What I hold to is a joke?  The only thing I hold to is not believing in something when there's no good reason to believe in it, and trivially, not to believe in something when there's no good reason to believe in it and there's a good reason to not believe in it.

I don't really care if you change your mind.  I have absolutely no problem with religious people, as long as their beliefs don't affect them in a way I consider to be detrimental to their health, or the health of others.  Going to church, praying, having a high standard for morality, and being a generally enjoyable person are some of the traits I associate with people like you.  I don't really think any less of you for maintaining your beliefs, but I don't understand why you find them consistent with reality.

I'm simply trying to have an interesting discussion.  If it is uninteresting to you, or you're becoming offended, I'll understand.

You hold to something that is more probable because you lack an encounter with God which I myself and thousands of others claim to have had and continue to have. It is not indoctrination that I am holding to; it is a supernatural revealing of a God who refuses to prove Himself to you according to your definitions but has responded to the genuine faith of many.

You claim to have had a supernatural experience.  Of course there's nothing I can do to discuss this in a meaningful way, I'll just leave it at "I don't think it was a supernatural experience."  I'm reasonably confident that all of the things you've described on the forums can be attributed to psychological phenomena.

My standard of evidence is entirely reasonable, and I'd find it absolutely absurd if you disagree.  Remember that I told you I was genuinely faithful for more than a decade, and I never had anything close to a supernatural experience.  If you want to reject the claim that I was faithful, then I'd ask you what you're doing differently.

I could relay a multitude of experiences in which the Holy Spirit in the form of a voice or a dream or a vision has told me a thing was going to happen, and it did. I am talking times, places and events. I could tell you of miracles I have witnessed with my own eyes. I could go on and on, and odds are you would not believe me or you'd just skirt around them and stick to your box that God must prove Himself within but has refused.

I hope you realize that dreams are a rather silly thing to refer to unless something was revealed to you that would've been impossible for you to know while awake.  They're nice and fuzzy, but I've had dreams where I was being chased around by a monster on top of the roof of my house.  That doesn't mean that a monster of the roof of my house exists.

I don't really know what you mean by "vision", but if it's anything similar to daydreaming, then the same restriction above applies.

Hearing voices is probably different and more meaningful, but you'll have to understand my skepticism.  Your word on such a thing just doesn't mean much.  If a bunch of independent sources told me they heard the voice of God, then of course I'd take it more seriously, but a handful of personal experiences is meaningless to me unless the person experiencing them is me.

Whether you like it or not according to both the objective faith I hold as well as my subjective experience He is not going to do that, and therefore our arguments are unfruitful in the work God has called me to, and the means by which He is going to fulfill his purposes in this world. Understand that I am not going to follow you down the path that you are trying to lead period, and all your comments to try and make me look inapt mean nothing to me.

Objective faith?  What does that even mean?  You objectively believe in the existence of God?

Again, I'm not really trying to convince you of anything.  I'm merely asking you why you believe what you believe, and telling you why the reasons are either unsound (this hasn't really happened) or meaningless to me (e.g., personal experiences).

I don't really care what you think I believe, unless you have a legitimate, objective criticism that isn't "it's inconsistent with what I believe".  So far, you've done nothing to make any sort of reasonable criticism of my beliefs.

Such philosophies are certainly stripping the faith out of a Christian who has had nothing more than some mental agreement with what the Bible claims to be true or have clung to the corrupt traditions of the church, but for those of us who have had dramatic experiences of which the Bible defines as the norm for the true believer your arguments will not strip us of our allegiance to the living God. You assume that because such a high percentage of the western world and in particular America claims to be Christian that they are in fact actually saved and recognized by God as a son or daughter in His kingdom and submitted to Christ. I do not hold to that assumption, and actually believe that the converts to Christ in said Middle Eastern and Asian countries are actually of a higher percentage of true disciples.

This is an interesting point.  However, I'm still quite certain that there are maannnyy more people like you in America than in Iran.  You're also presented with more opportunities that lead you to the beliefs you hold and less scrutiny should you choose to take advantage of them.

Of the Christians in Iran, a higher percentage of them may have beliefs that are closer to yours, but unless you assume that some ridiculously small percentage of American Christians are "saved" (and I assure you, I've met a ton of people who share beliefs quite similar to yours), you're still a long way from defeating my argument.

Within the boundaries of my profession all of your arguments are irrelevant because it is not how God has chosen to operate according to both experience and that which has been objectively revealed in His word. As far as I am concerned my experience, and the experience of people who I know and don't know around the world are sufficient. Do you still not get that I do not care about everything you continue to post, and that I am sticking with the argument that God is in fact revealing Himself and granting people encounters in response to there faith?

Objectively revealed in his word?  What do you mean by that?

Look, I don't give a crap if you chalk a bunch of dreams and voices in your head to God.  I'm just telling you that it's meaningless to me, and that until I heard voices in my head, I'm rather convinced that God is a figment of your imagination.

I do believe that a supernatural being can and often is behind popular mythology and or prominent religions. I also believe revelatory experiences are possible if I had put faith or called out to one of them. Yahweh is however the creator of all, and the supernatural beings who fell from there original place in His kingdom are now responsible for deceiving the world. There is a lot out there that is nothing more than the imagination of the human mind, and there is a lot that could potentially be real, but once again not deterministic to my profession.

what is this "profession" you keep speaking of?  you're a missionary, aren't you? ech...

I don't think this answers why you don't believe (I'm assuming) that God throws lightening bolts out of his house in the clouds and has a son named Hercules that went around lifting heavy stuff.  And it definitely doesn't answer why you don't believe in Leprechauns or Santa Claus.

The point I'm making is that unless you fall back on your personal experiences (which is fine, but is, again, irrelevant to what I believe), you're making a special exception for believing in God.  There's no good reason to not believe that Leprechauns or Unicorns exist, but I'm guessing you don't believe in them.

If God has defined the context in which you or Muslims or anyone else may enter into an encounter with Him and that is rejected, whether because of some innate tendency or not, it says nothing about the love of God. Man lives according to his own free will and these innate tendencies are sin and God will not accept them. Gods love could be better seen in what He is doing today despite mans choice to continually reject His terms of salvation. Therefore what I am saying about the supernatural evangelism of Jesus Christ in the Muslim world which has fiercely rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ and Gods opened invitation to live for eternity is in fact relevant to my profession. It is relevant because there is widespread claimed encounters with God through Jesus Christ that match the experiences I claim to have. This is the road I am going to continue to walk, and it will not be a work of my own hands but rather a partnering with God as He continues to move in the supernatural in response to genuine faith.

That's nice, but unless you make the assertion that it is no less likely that a person in Iran is saved than a person in America is saved, then we have a problem.

God either:
1) Puts more people that won't be saved in Iran than he does in America, or
2) Makes it harder for people in Iran to be saved, and fewer of them are saved as a result of this.

Are you going to make that assertion?  If you are, I have a bone to pick with you. :)

This is the parting of our ways as you will continue to tread your path and I mine. Yes I believe we will all stand before the bema seat of Christ, and while not sure I necessarily hold to traditional doctrines or descriptions of hell I absolutely believe God will be just in sentencing people to an eternity of separation from Himself. It's His will, not mine and not yours.

Why don't you believe in the traditional notion of Hell?

[rabbit]

rather I was making it clear that what you hold to is a joke as far as I am concerned

With that fragment of a sentence you have lost all credibility and respect I held for you.  Sidoh is simply trying to explain what he believes and why, and then you dismiss it as a joke because it's not what you believe.  You are, in fact, about 3 hops way from extremism.  Yes, you heard me, extremism.  I think most people these days call that "terrorism".  Just because somebody doesn't believe what you do doesn't mean you can dismiss whatever they are saying and continue saying the same thing over and over as if it were fact.

Another thing I'd like to ask: most of the world, throughout history, has been non-Christian.  All of them went to hell.  Even a good number of the Christians go to hell, as, let's face it, most of them have probably eaten meat on a Friday.  By these two facts alone, I can conclude that, if heaven existed, there would be about 30 people there.  That's bullshit.

Do you hear me Tuberload? YOUR RELIGION IS BULLSHIT

Modify: I certainly have no problem with these statements, or there being here but the extreme font size is not necessary -- Tuberload

[Blaze]

That's uncalled for, rabbit.  Grow up.

[Tuberload]

I will admit that calling said beliefs a joke was immature on my part and for that I apologize. However rabbit your supposedly new found opinion of me is just another excuse for you to lash out and attack me like you have done in the past because this opinion you hold really isn't new. Your equally immature responses therefore accomplish nothing except maybe to help you release a little steam. I can understand this and as long as you can control yourself I will not moderate your posts here for doing it.




This is the way I see this whole conversation, and I will explain it with an illustration:

Before us is a scale in which evidence will be placed in either one tray or the other and we are then supposed to assume that to whichever side it tilts the most is correct. Of course this does nothing to absolutely prove or disprove the issue at hand but depending on either the doctrine of faith or skepticism one holds to it will have to suffice. Now to each side of the scale is a table in which evidence is presented and then placed upon the scale.

The table of faith will contain the objective faith once and for all delivered to the saints according to the book of Jude, also known as the word of God or the several books of objective doctrine which is separate from ones subjective experience but meant to lead and define a true experience with God in His Spirit. Next there is my subjective faith that I exercise in believing the word of faith delivered to me, and through this I see its promises come to pass in my life by experience even though everything that comes naturally to me says that this should not be possible. Beyond this there is God confirming His Word by supernatural means which in my case, but by no means limited to myself which an unbiased plunge into third world and charismatic Christianity would prove, has included intense physical sensations, the witnessing of miracles that could be seen by my natural eye, the revealing of future events through both dreams and the voice of God that were going to take place to which I had no way of knowing (as for the miracles, and revealing of events I can list some of the more prominent examples). Still beyond this there is the immense change that has taken place in both my life and the lives of countless others who were both statistically, emotionally and mentally without hope.

The table of skepticism has upon it masterfully crafted products of the human mind and logic. God has not done this for me therefore it is invalid. God will not respond and reveal Himself to me according to the criteria that I will allow the revelation to take place therefore it is invalid. All I am after is data that makes sense to my mind, faith is totally out of the question and I will not genuinely seek God from a place of broken contrition because I have nothing left but to believe God exists and I am willing to wait for Him to reward this faith with some sort of encounter.

Now before the evidence can be placed within the scales so that people can judge for themselves as to what they are going to hold major proponents of skepticism walk over to the table of faith throwing there evidence to the ground and discounting it as invalid because it doesn't line up with there criteria. The scales tilt to there side and they shout forget your evidence and forget the way God has said he would reveal Himself in His word, and prove to us according to our standard that He exists. If you cannot do this as far as we are concerned we win, and as far as I am concerned bravo you win and I will move on awaiting the one to whom God has chosen to reveal Himself.

You see it is from this interpretation that I immaturely responded to it being a joke. Both my confession of faith and the profession I have been called to according to the word by which I will be judged lead me away from any sort of entanglement with your doctrines of skepticism. You see for the person who encounters God either by Himself or through my ministry this is by and large meant to be personal between himself and His God with the secondary effects of encouraging those of the household of faith by means of testimony. Your doctrines of skepticism will do nothing to strip either myself as a witness or this ones experience, but it will quite effectively keep many others on the broad way that Jesus said leads to Hades.

According to Jesus, "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. Yes Father it pleased you to do it this way! My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Because of this I will just pick all my cast aside evidence and continue moving forward and allow God to choose who he will and won't reveal Himself to. I can understand one having a problem with this, but the problem is not with me it is with God. My profession is to preach the word of faith, and if people genuinely respond to that word in faith it is Gods responsibility to release the revelation whether it be through miracle or some other supernatural encounter or perhaps just some inner conviction that the persons heart is content to hold onto. If they reject the word of faith Jesus commanded that we move on as a testimony against them and there rejection of God because there is a judgment day coming in which they as well as myself will be held accountable. Once again a problem with this is really aimed at God and not me.

I know a host of people both personally and through mutual acquaintances that are experiencing supernatural phenomenon much of which surpasses my own personal experiences. These people are being changed and moving forward in the call of God despite there being criticized and discounted by there skeptic proponents.

This friend is what I am going to live for and continue to walk in. This is what interests me. This is what I am called to. This is what I accept as truth. This is what is changing people's lives. This is the move of God that is being poured out upon the face of the earth and though it is small it is growing.

Just because man has taken a religion devoid of God and done with it what he will and because of that various geographical areas are more dominant in one religion or another does not detract from the present genuine move of God that I claim to be taking place. Jesus Himself came to the chosen people of God and rebuked them because they didn't know Him or His Father who sent Him. He said they searched the scriptures diligently and held to all sort of traditions but completely missed the living God. He said that the kingdom that was prepared for them was coming and that it would be filled with unbelieving Gentiles but many Jews would be cast into outer darkness eternally separated from God and His kingdom. Jesus said that God had appointed times in which He would choose to move and save people regardless of what man had done with religion, that God knows the heart of a man and has predestined those whose hearts were really for Him to be saved.
This is it for me. I can say I have been quite sharpened and strengthened by our conversations. God is revealing to me through His Spirit and Word what it is He has really called me to and what is nothing more than my own natural tendency which He rejects. I am going to be catapulted forward from here preaching the good news of His kingdom entering into supernatural encounters with those that God has destined to manifest His glory unto. I will do all of this because I am learning that it really has nothing to do with me or my ability to produce results, rather it is because God considers me a friend and has allowed me to be a part of what He is doing. While I hope that someone listening has responded in faith and is being drawn by God unto Himself, I can accept that this hope will not be fulfilled and I will move on with a clean conscience that I am free of your blood because I preached His word and that is all He has asked me to do.

[rabbit]

I will admit that calling said beliefs a joke was immature on my part and for that I apologize. However rabbit your supposedly new found opinion of me is just another excuse for you to lash out and attack me like you have done in the past because this opinion you hold really isn't new. Your equally immature responses therefore accomplish nothing except maybe to help you release a little steam. I can understand this and as long as you can control yourself I will not moderate your posts here for doing it.

On the contrary, I have never outright disliked you before.  In fact, you were quite a nice acquaintance, even if I disagreed with your religious standpoint.  I will not think highly of anyone who disregards someone's beliefs as a joke, regardless of who they are.  My newfound lack of respect for you is, in fact, new.  I do not need an an excuse to lash out and attack anyone; if I feel like doing as such, I will, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who will testify to that.

[Tuberload]

I said plainly what has been carefully crafted into long drawn out arguments. Remember rabbit that I am just a meth addict who traded it all in for Jesus. I am nothing more than a mental delusion rampaging around this forum.  That is something that I can honestly laugh at and the humor is not directed at you or anyone else when I laugh. Take a step back and read the dialogue. Most of it is an attempt to grab the upper hand by making the other person seem less than. What I said was nothing new to the various conversations and if you should choose to hold this over my head as if I am the only one at fault then so be it.

I can also honestly say that there has been no interaction between the two of us that lead me to believe you thought anything of me. I apologize here and now if I wrongly interpreted your disposition towards me.

As a side note I am not an Armenian legalist attempting to load you down with burdens that I myself cannot and am not willing to bear. I enjoy films that do not have to sell out to more base forms of human animalistic appetite. Country style pork ribs marinated in BBQ sauce and grilled to perfection find a place at the top of my list. Video games have a way of imprisoning me therefore I am learning to discipline myself slowly while not rejecting them entirely. I accept my freedoms in Christ while at the same time recognizing that not all things are profitable as well as always heading the warning that not all practices will grant me access to the kingdom of God.

I will not however aid people in there belief that just because they said a prayer one time and answer yes to being a Christian on statistical polls that they are in fact a part of Gods kingdom. Jesus said that along with the narrow gate there is a narrow way, come out of the world and its sin bearing your cross while following Him. If we are not willing to be Disciples of Christ and His teaching then we are not worthy of Him. At least that's how Jesus said it Himself but most confessing Christians don't know what He said or cling to some church tradition which causes them to break the commandments of God.

Jesus' teaching is largely centered on the ways in which we interact with each other and the faith and trust we demonstrate in and towards our heavenly Father. Hypothetically of course rabbit I will not daydream about sleeping with your wife and should you not show me the same good will I will forgive you and seek to restore and maintain our relationship as far as my end is concerned. I am not going to maintain an angry disposition or plot my revenge for your calling me an extremist terrorist and then ironically proceeding to blow up my thread with your font bomb. I am going to forgive you in my heart and hope that we can settle our differences before I parade before the throne of God seeking His blessing. Above all things I am going to entrust my life into the hands of God and rest in His will, continually seeking out His judgments against the ways I am displeasing and trading them in for His ways which are pleasing. It is quite practical and relational and although there are sacraments which we observe it is not meant to be primarily ritualistic or legalistic. Legalism of course being a Christian topic that would need proper definition and expansion because church tradition which leads Christians astray is largely centered around this in a lot of circles.