Excerpt from "Against Meat"

[rabbit]

I'm pretty sure that if bacon was made illegal I'd start killing the humans responsible.  Bacon is awesome.  You wouldn't want HUMANS to die, now would you, iago?

[Sidoh]

That one falls under (a). There are very few physical benefits to eating meat, and lots of drawbacks (increased risk of all kinds of cancers, heart disease, much higher risk of eating contaminated food, etc).

There are plenty of advantages:

1) Taste.  I'd starve on any sort of non-meat diet.  I'm very picky.
2) Convenience.  Having to make special precautions when buying food or dining out would drive me nuts.
3) Health.  It's more effort to maintain a non-meat diet.
4) Fun.  Enjoying good food with people is a lot of fun.  I don't mean to say this is impossible to do with non-meat foods, but it definitely ruins a lot of opportunities that would otherwise be there.

As for your disadvantages, I don't consider any of them significant.  I'm sure there are studies that suggest these things, and I'm sure they have some merit, but there are a few caveats that I suspect you're ignoring:

1) The magnitude of the increase in risk is probably trivial.
2) People who have non-meat diets tend to be more healthy people overall (exercise, diet, etc.), which decreases their risk anyway, and it makes the numbers meaningless.  Unless the studies you're implicitly referencing here account for this, I'd be very skeptical about your conclusion.  It'd have to compare vegans with slaughterers who have comparable physical activity levels, healthy eating habits, etc.
3) I'm sure there's a higher risk of eating contaminated food, and that's a reasonable consideration.  However, I'd send you back to (1).  The increase in risk is probably trivial.  In the 22 years of my meat rich diet (YUMMMM), I've never had symptoms of having eaten 'contaminated food' that were noticeable.

<edit> For benefits, I don't buy "it tastes good" as any kind of argument -- that's like saying "rape is ok because it feels good!". While that may be the case, it's only good for one party -- the other is suffering, and losing something important. Killing stuff for simple desires doesn't really count as a "benefit", in my books. I'm looking more at nutritional value (which is nearly nil for most meat).

Ignoring taste is stupid, and your response is completely silly for the following reasons:

1) I'm not concluding that eating meat is okay just because it tastes good.  I don't deny that this contributes to my argument, but it isn't the only consideration.  Your argument assumes it is.
2) If you're trying to conclude that rape is okay, "it feels good" certainly contributes to this argument.  Alone, I would say it's a completely silly argument, but it's equally silly to ignore that it provides a non-negligible amount of support.

Blah blah blah... it goes on and on.  I am impressed that you are able to maintain a vegan diet, but I am not at all impressed by your ability to argue that it is the only reasonable diet.

[iago]

1) Taste.  I'd starve on any sort of non-meat diet.  I'm very picky.

Being picky sucks. Mushrooms rock, despite what you say.

Not being picky myself, I can't say this with certainty, but I think pickiness stems a lot from upbringing. If people are brought up vegan, they're likely going to be more ok with vegan foods. That sort of related to my next point...

2) Convenience.  Having to make special precautions when buying food or dining out would drive me nuts.
4) Fun.  Enjoying good food with people is a lot of fun.  I don't mean to say this is impossible to do with non-meat foods, but it definitely ruins a lot of opportunities that would otherwise be there.

...that pretty much all your points are things that stem from the world we live in, not from veganess or omnivority being a good thing/bad thing. The more people who accept it, the more that's going to change (and it HAS changed since 10-20 years ago). I realize that convenience is a fine argument for a single person to be/not be vegan, but I'd rather stick to the moral/ethical side of it instead of focusing on the artificial difficulties.

For what it's worth, once you get used to it, it isn't that difficult. It's far easier than I actually thought it'd be. It also depends how strict you are -- I know some people who will grill waiters about what ingredients they use, and who request having their food fried in a separate fryer than others'. Personally, I don't sweat cross contamination (to a point), and I try not to give restaurants a hard time. If it's reasonable to assume it's vegan, and they're busy or whatever, I'll just make the assumption. Yes, I've been burned on that before ("shit, that has mayo on it? Can I get another one?"), but overall it makes life easier.

3) Health.  It's more effort to maintain a non-meat diet.

I actually find it easier. Far easier. After I became vegan, I became much more conscious of what I was eating, and my diet improved significantly. Part of the reason is that most fast food is off limits, so that instantly makes your diet significantly healthier. Another part is, previously I used to eat a lot of stuff that was basically devoid of any kind of nutrients (most meat is, and the vegetables were always tangential to the meal, when they existed); now, I do have meals on occasion (like my dinner today -- mushroom burgers and Tasti Taters (dunno if those are Canadian but whatever)) that have very little in the way of nutrients, but they're typically the exception instead of the rule.

Also, I'm assuming (feel free to correct me) that you're dismissing vegan food as something that you'd starve on without actually trying it, or even giving it a chance. I'd highly suggest finding some pure-vegan restaurants (there are usually some in every town, might have to use Google to find them) and trying out their food. It might be better than you'd think (it's absolutely better than I originally would have thought). Even my omnivorous friends (and all my friends are omnivorous), who often join me at vegan restaurants here (we're fortunate enough to have several in a smaller city) love the food. Maybe not even to be vegan themselves, but enough to understand what it's all about. It isn't all tofu and mushrooms

As for your disadvantages, I don't consider any of them significant.  I'm sure there are studies that suggest these things, and I'm sure they have some merit, but there are a few caveats that I suspect you're ignoring:

1) The magnitude of the increase in risk is probably trivial.
2) People who have non-meat diets tend to be more healthy people overall (exercise, diet, etc.), which decreases their risk anyway, and it makes the numbers meaningless.  Unless the studies you're implicitly referencing here account for this, I'd be very skeptical about your conclusion.  It'd have to compare vegans with slaughterers who have comparable physical activity levels, healthy eating habits, etc.
3) I'm sure there's a higher risk of eating contaminated food, and that's a reasonable consideration.  However, I'd send you back to (1).  The increase in risk is probably trivial.  In the 22 years of my meat rich diet (YUMMMM), I've never had symptoms of having eaten 'contaminated food' that were noticeable.

<edit> For benefits, I don't buy "it tastes good" as any kind of argument -- that's like saying "rape is ok because it feels good!". While that may be the case, it's only good for one party -- the other is suffering, and losing something important. Killing stuff for simple desires doesn't really count as a "benefit", in my books. I'm looking more at nutritional value (which is nearly nil for most meat).

Ignoring taste is stupid, and your response is completely silly for the following reasons:

1) I'm not concluding that eating meat is okay just because it tastes good.  I don't deny that this contributes to my argument, but it isn't the only consideration.  Your argument assumes it is.
2) If you're trying to conclude that rape is okay, "it feels good" certainly contributes to this argument.  Alone, I would say it's a completely silly argument, but it's equally silly to ignore that it provides a non-negligible amount of support.

Blah blah blah... it goes on and on.  I am impressed that you are able to maintain a vegan diet, but I am not at all impressed by your ability to argue that it is the only reasonable diet.

The best way I can really address any of those points is, pick a few vegan blogs and read them for a few weeks, without dismissing everything at the outset (in fact, research everything they say). Watch videos they link to, try recipes they post, see how terrible (sorry, editorializing ) factory farming is, and really try and consider their viewpoints, even briefly.

As a single source, and as somebody who's still fairly new to the lifestyle (it'll be 2 years on Halloween ), I'm not the best source. In addition, there are a lot of reasons to do a vegan diet, and I'm not giving credit to all of them (or giving them all the amount of time/discussion they deserve), I only talk about my own reasons.

And as for the rape bit -- I think you misunderstood my point. I didn't suggest that you said 'tasting good' is the only reason; rather, I said that 'tasting good' isn't a valid reason, so I wouldn't buy it, and I wanted other things.

Keep in mind, it's not like I woke up one day and decided that meat tasted bad -- I used to love it, and I'm sure I'd still like the taste. I've even thought that I could never be vegetarian for pretty much the same reasons you present (except the part about being picky, I'm not picky). For what it's worth, when I was your age, I definitely would have said the same thing you're saying, no doubt in my mind. As I grew up, I decided that the lifestyle I'd been living was wrong, and I've been able to change a lot of things.


Also keep in mind, you're only seeing one side of the debate, since, as you said, you've been on that side your entire life. Me, I was an omnivore for 24 years and a vegan now for two (I was never really a vegetarian -- I live by the 'go big or go home!' principal ). I think you have to try both sides before you can have a reasonable opinion.

[Camel]

How do you feel about eating vegans? Less suffering goes in to their production than does for a carnivore.

[iago]

How do you feel about eating vegans? Less suffering goes in to their production than does for a carnivore.

Pretty much all animals people eat are supposed to be vegans (though on farms, they're omnivores + cannibals instead). That is, of course, assuming you're talking about eating animals.

If you're talking about eating vegan people, that's fine too. I generally tell people that cannibalism isn't really that different from eating meat. I also say that eating cats/dogs/horses isn't really any different from chickens/cows. I mean, no matter what, you're eating intelligent creatures that had to be killed to make you happy. Who cares if they're humans/puppies/etc?

[Sidoh]

Being picky sucks. Mushrooms rock, despite what you say.

Not being picky myself, I can't say this with certainty, but I think pickiness stems a lot from upbringing. If people are brought up vegan, they're likely going to be more ok with vegan foods. That sort of related to my next point...

I'm sure it's a contribution, but I don't think it's the only one.  My gag reflexes go off when I eat most sea food, eggs, most mushrooms, etc.

...that pretty much all your points are things that stem from the world we live in, not from veganess or omnivority being a good thing/bad thing. The more people who accept it, the more that's going to change (and it HAS changed since 10-20 years ago). I realize that convenience is a fine argument for a single person to be/not be vegan, but I'd rather stick to the moral/ethical side of it instead of focusing on the artificial difficulties.

It doesn't matter

Here, you're saying it's necessary to justify your conclusion with an argument based entirely on morality.  I find this silly and objectionable.  This is the world we live in, and until both of the points I made don't hold water (i.e., they're FALSE), then I don't care.

For what it's worth, once you get used to it, it isn't that difficult. It's far easier than I actually thought it'd be. It also depends how strict you are -- I know some people who will grill waiters about what ingredients they use, and who request having their food fried in a separate fryer than others'. Personally, I don't sweat cross contamination (to a point), and I try not to give restaurants a hard time. If it's reasonable to assume it's vegan, and they're busy or whatever, I'll just make the assumption. Yes, I've been burned on that before ("shit, that has mayo on it? Can I get another one?"), but overall it makes life easier.

That's true of anything.  When you settle into a routine, it becomes less difficult.  That doesn't mean you're expending the same amount of effort as someone who isn't doing what you are; it just means you've gotten used to the amount of effort you have to go through.

I actually find it easier. Far easier. After I became vegan, I became much more conscious of what I was eating, and my diet improved significantly. Part of the reason is that most fast food is off limits, so that instantly makes your diet significantly healthier. Another part is, previously I used to eat a lot of stuff that was basically devoid of any kind of nutrients (most meat is, and the vegetables were always tangential to the meal, when they existed); now, I do have meals on occasion (like my dinner today -- mushroom burgers and Tasti Taters (dunno if those are Canadian but whatever)) that have very little in the way of nutrients, but they're typically the exception instead of the rule.

That's not some magical effect of becoming vegan.  If someone wants to "watch what they eat," it's easier to do it if you don't restrict your diet.

It makes your diet healthier, but that doesn't mean equally healthy diets don't exist outside of veganism.

Also, I'm assuming (feel free to correct me) that you're dismissing vegan food as something that you'd starve on without actually trying it, or even giving it a chance. I'd highly suggest finding some pure-vegan restaurants (there are usually some in every town, might have to use Google to find them) and trying out their food. It might be better than you'd think (it's absolutely better than I originally would have thought). Even my omnivorous friends (and all my friends are omnivorous), who often join me at vegan restaurants here (we're fortunate enough to have several in a smaller city) love the food. Maybe not even to be vegan themselves, but enough to understand what it's all about. It isn't all tofu and mushrooms

I don't deny that there exist vegan dishes that I'd like, but they'd be farrer and few between.

The best way I can really address any of those points is, pick a few vegan blogs and read them for a few weeks, without dismissing everything at the outset (in fact, research everything they say). Watch videos they link to, try recipes they post, see how terrible (sorry, editorializing ) factory farming is, and really try and consider their viewpoints, even briefly.

As a single source, and as somebody who's still fairly new to the lifestyle (it'll be 2 years on Halloween ), I'm not the best source. In addition, there are a lot of reasons to do a vegan diet, and I'm not giving credit to all of them (or giving them all the amount of time/discussion they deserve), I only talk about my own reasons.

And as for the rape bit -- I think you misunderstood my point. I didn't suggest that you said 'tasting good' is the only reason; rather, I said that 'tasting good' isn't a valid reason, so I wouldn't buy it, and I wanted other things.

Keep in mind, it's not like I woke up one day and decided that meat tasted bad -- I used to love it, and I'm sure I'd still like the taste. I've even thought that I could never be vegetarian for pretty much the same reasons you present (except the part about being picky, I'm not picky). For what it's worth, when I was your age, I definitely would have said the same thing you're saying, no doubt in my mind. As I grew up, I decided that the lifestyle I'd been living was wrong, and I've been able to change a lot of things.


Also keep in mind, you're only seeing one side of the debate, since, as you said, you've been on that side your entire life. Me, I was an omnivore for 24 years and a vegan now for two (I was never really a vegetarian -- I live by the 'go big or go home!' principal ). I think you have to try both sides before you can have a reasonable opinion.

I'll respond to this later... class is starting.

[iago]

I'm sure it's a contribution, but I don't think it's the only one.  My gag reflexes go off when I eat most sea food, eggs, most mushrooms, etc.

Well, sea food + eggs are bad, so you're 2/3 of the way there.

It doesn't matter

Here, you're saying it's necessary to justify your conclusion with an argument based entirely on morality.  I find this silly and objectionable.  This is the world we live in, and until both of the points I made don't hold water (i.e., they're FALSE), then I don't care.

It absolutely matters. I've had this argument with CrAz3d before -- society saying something's right doesn't make it right. I think with CrAz3d, the issue was gun control, but it could apply equally well to this.

You're really trying to justify what comes down to a moral argument (is it right/wrong to end lives to enhance our own) by saying that it's ok because everybody else does it, and therefore it's easier. The best example I can give would involve invoking Godwin's law, and I don't think that's really necessary.

That's true of anything.  When you settle into a routine, it becomes less difficult.  That doesn't mean you're expending the same amount of effort as someone who isn't doing what you are; it just means you've gotten used to the amount of effort you have to go through.

You said that the precautions would "drive you nuts". I countered by explaining why it isn't so bad, in my experience. I didn't say the effort was the same as not being vegan. You're putting words in my mouth.

At first, you have to stop and look at ingredients and ask questions and everything, so it is a non-insignificant amount of effort. But after awhile, you learn what's ok/what isn't, and the effort is drastically reduced. I have a pretty good idea of what I can eat when I'm at stores/restaurants/etc, so the effort is greatly reduced.

That's not some magical effect of becoming vegan.  If someone wants to "watch what they eat," it's easier to do it if you don't restrict your diet.

It makes your diet healthier, but that doesn't mean equally healthy diets don't exist outside of veganism.

Your argument was that vegan leads to an unhealthier diet ("Health.  It's more effort to maintain a non-meat diet."). I countered it by explaining that improvements in my diet as a result. You're putting words in my mouth, again.

I don't deny that there exist vegan dishes that I'd like, but they'd be farrer and few between.

Don't make assumptions till you try.

I'll respond to this later... class is starting.

Ok!

That part was very wordy, but it really comes down to: learn more before you criticize. I really did feel the same as you before I befriended a vegan and got some insight into their world.

[Camel]

Pretty much all animals people eat are supposed to be vegans (though on farms, they're omnivores + cannibals instead). That is, of course, assuming you're talking about eating animals.

I know that animal parts that would otherwise be wasted are generally just ground up and added to the food, but I would hardly consider that a reason to call farm animals omnivorous/carnivorous. Is there more to it than that? If I tricked you in to eating meat without your prior knowledge, I wouldn't consider you an omnivore.

If you're talking about eating vegan people, that's fine too. I generally tell people that cannibalism isn't really that different from eating meat. I also say that eating cats/dogs/horses isn't really any different from chickens/cows. I mean, no matter what, you're eating intelligent creatures that had to be killed to make you happy. Who cares if they're humans/puppies/etc?

Your insinuation that puppies are delicious is offensive. I demand an inquiry.

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE



In all seriousness, though, I really don't eat meat very often. Usually, I only eat meat when it would be inconvenient not to - if someone else is cooking, or I'm at a restaurant that doesn't have palatable alternatives. This happens perhaps once or twice a month. It has been over a year since I've cooked meat for myself. One reason is that my roommate is a vegetarian, and it's just easier to share meals.

I wouldn't have any issue getting accustomed to a lifestyle of not eating land-based meat, so long as I didn't have to give up sushi! It's somewhat of a tradition in my circle of friends, and I have no desire to give it up. I've seen credible evidence that suggests that fish don't feel pain, but that isn't a position I'd like to defend, so I won't give that as a reason

[Camel]

So I googled "do fish feel pain" and this article came up; made me laugh.

The 2003 Edinburgh study confirmed that trout have polymodal nociceptors around their face and head—i.e., they have the ability to detect painful stimuli with their nervous system. But, according to some definitions of pain, the detection of painful stimuli is not enough. The animal must have the ability to understand it is in pain to really feel pain. Putting a hook in the mouth of a trout stimulates it to race around the water, to not go where the line wants to force it. But this doesn't mean that the fish is thinking "Shit. Shit. Shit. This sucks. This sucks. Ow. Ow. Ow." What seems like a desperate escape might be a reflexive reaction, similar to your leg moving when the doctor taps your knee.

[iago]

I know that animal parts that would otherwise be wasted are generally just ground up and added to the food, but I would hardly consider that a reason to call farm animals omnivorous/carnivorous. Is there more to it than that? If I tricked you in to eating meat without your prior knowledge, I wouldn't consider you an omnivore.

Well, it's a regular part of their diet. If I unconsciously ate meat every day, I probably wouldn't be called a vegan (even if I thought I was)

Your insinuation that puppies are delicious is offensive. I demand an inquiry.

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

Very well. We'll have some puppies killed and sent up to you.

In all seriousness, though, I really don't eat meat very often. Usually, I only eat meat when it would be inconvenient not to - if someone else is cooking, or I'm at a restaurant that doesn't have palatable alternatives. This happens perhaps once or twice a month. It has been over a year since I've cooked meat for myself. One reason is that my roommate is a vegetarian, and it's just easier to share meals.

I wouldn't have any issue getting accustomed to a lifestyle of not eating land-based meat, so long as I didn't have to give up sushi! It's somewhat of a tradition in my circle of friends, and I have no desire to give it up. I've seen credible evidence that suggests that fish don't feel pain, but that isn't a position I'd like to defend, so I won't give that as a reason

That's cool. I don't argue (or tell people) that others should be vegan. I don't think that's a realistic stand to take. But I do advocate reducing the amount of meat/dairy in people's diets. The American (Western?) diet is terrible, in general, and people should try and improve it.

My biggest issues with vegetarians is that they put cheese on/in everything. And cheese is very likely worse for you than meat.

[Camel]

Yeah, I'm not giving up cheese. Maybe if I liked ketchup more, but nope.

[iago]

Yeah, I'm not giving up cheese. Maybe if I liked ketchup more, but nope.

Like I said to Sidoh, I've been there and I've said the same thing.

[Sidoh]

Yeah, I'm not giving up cheese. Maybe if I liked ketchup more, but nope.

Like I said to Sidoh, I've been there and I've said the same thing.

THEREFORE ___________________________________

[iago]

Yeah, I'm not giving up cheese. Maybe if I liked ketchup more, but nope.

Like I said to Sidoh, I've been there and I've said the same thing.

THEREFORE ___________________________________

I thought it was implied, but......

THEREFORE it's possible that you'll change your mind in the future

[Sidoh]

Well, sea food + eggs are bad, so you're 2/3 of the way there.

They're examples of things I find absolutely disgusting, and I think it's more a product of my genetics than my upbringing, especially considering the rest of my family likes both sea food and eggs.

It absolutely matters. I've had this argument with CrAz3d before -- society saying something's right doesn't make it right. I think with CrAz3d, the issue was gun control, but it could apply equally well to this.

I find it annoying that you mention this.  It's like you're saying

(1) Crazed made an argument similar to this
(2) Crazed is generally incapable of forming sound arguments
Therefore, (3) Your argument sucks.

Which is really stupid, and it's a sly way of attempting discrediting what I say.  I don't appreciate it.

You're really trying to justify what comes down to a moral argument (is it right/wrong to end lives to enhance our own) by saying that it's ok because everybody else does it, and therefore it's easier. The best example I can give would involve invoking Godwin's law, and I don't think that's really necessary.

The decision I'm trying to "justify" includes moral considerations, sure, but that doesn't mean that it necessarily only includes moral considerations.  This is exactly what I was pointing out.

You said that the precautions would "drive you nuts". I countered by explaining why it isn't so bad, in my experience. I didn't say the effort was the same as not being vegan. You're putting words in my mouth.

I suppose I was putting words in your mouth there, sorry about that.

Regardless, your "counter" doesn't do anything for me, because you're not me.  I don't want to deal with arranging my life around what I eat.  That sounds terrible.

At first, you have to stop and look at ingredients and ask questions and everything, so it is a non-insignificant amount of effort. But after awhile, you learn what's ok/what isn't, and the effort is drastically reduced. I have a pretty good idea of what I can eat when I'm at stores/restaurants/etc, so the effort is greatly reduced.

By non-insignificant, you mean significant.  I don't care if the effort is reduced over time.  I still wasted my life reading the ingredients on food.  Yuck.  No thanks.

Your argument was that vegan leads to an unhealthier diet ("Health.  It's more effort to maintain a non-meat diet."). I countered it by explaining that improvements in my diet as a result. You're putting words in my mouth, again.

No, that wasn't my argument.  Now you're putting words in my mouth.  I'm saying that a person who eats meat and puts less work into their diet than a vegan (but still more than the average person) can be just as healthy as a vegan.

Don't make assumptions till you try.

I suppose this is fair, but considering I have tried a few, and I've found most of them completely disgusting, I think I'm reasonably qualified to say I wouldn't like that many vegan dishes.

Did I mention I hate onions too?

The best way I can really address any of those points is, pick a few vegan blogs and read them for a few weeks, without dismissing everything at the outset (in fact, research everything they say). Watch videos they link to, try recipes they post, see how terrible (sorry, editorializing ) factory farming is, and really try and consider their viewpoints, even briefly.

While I haven't read vegan blogs (and sorry, I don't plan to), I have given quite a bit of consideration to their views.  I've decided (again and again) that I just don't care enough to change my lifestyle.

And as for the rape bit -- I think you misunderstood my point. I didn't suggest that you said 'tasting good' is the only reason; rather, I said that 'tasting good' isn't a valid reason, so I wouldn't buy it, and I wanted other things.

You're not getting it

I'm saying that your analogy doesn't even work.  "It feels good" is a reason to rape.  I'm not saying it's anywhere near sufficient, but regardless, it is a reason.

Also keep in mind, you're only seeing one side of the debate, since, as you said, you've been on that side your entire life. Me, I was an omnivore for 24 years and a vegan now for two (I was never really a vegetarian -- I live by the 'go big or go home!' principal ). I think you have to try both sides before you can have a reasonable opinion.

"You can't criticize veganism until you try it!"

Ugh, that's so silly.  Of course I can.  If you really believe that, though, maybe I should get my girlfriend to post here.  She tried veganism for a month to prove a point, and she hated it.