Excerpt from "Against Meat"

[iago]

Also, utilitarianism is fundamentally broken. Any system where you can justify genocide is bad!

Why?

Because that's something we know is fundamentally wrong.

Sometimes, you just have to go with your guts. :P

[Towelie]

Also, utilitarianism is fundamentally broken. Any system where you can justify genocide is bad!

Why?

Because that's something we know is fundamentally wrong.

Sometimes, you just have to go with your guts. :P

This doesn't even qualify as a counter argument.

"something we know is fundamentally wrong"... this is morality right here, and saying something is moral because it just is isn't an argument.

For example: How do I know that I exist? The answer isn't because I just do.
How do I know that God (or gods) exists (or doesn't)? The answer isn't because he just does, or doesn't
Why is something moral? The answer isn't because it just is.

Invalid argument!

[Camel]

But by being a Fruitarian he's essentially aborting all the new plants that could be born.  That is morally wrong for some reason.

No. Fruit has evolved to be tasty because it helps with seed dispersal. The seeds will pass through your body unharmed, and hopefully wind up somewhere far away.

[iago]

Also, utilitarianism is fundamentally broken. Any system where you can justify genocide is bad!

Why?

Because that's something we know is fundamentally wrong.

Sometimes, you just have to go with your guts. :P

This doesn't even qualify as a counter argument.

"something we know is fundamentally wrong"... this is morality right here, and saying something is moral because it just is isn't an argument.

For example: How do I know that I exist? The answer isn't because I just do.
How do I know that God (or gods) exists (or doesn't)? The answer isn't because he just does, or doesn't
Why is something moral? The answer isn't because it just is.

Invalid argument!

Like I said, my philosophy degree was a few years ago.. I'm not interesting in a full philosophical debate, I don't think a forum is the proper medium, anyways. It may be an invalid argument from a philosophical perspective, but I'd class it as a "good enough" argument for a forum. :P

[iago]

But by being a Fruitarian he's essentially aborting all the new plants that could be born.  That is morally wrong for some reason.

No. Fruit has evolved to be tasty because it helps with seed dispersal. The seeds will pass through your body unharmed, and hopefully wind up somewhere far away.

Exactly! It's perfectly moral, as long as you crap in the bush. :P

[Sidoh]

Also, utilitarianism is fundamentally broken. Any system where you can justify genocide is bad!

Why?

Because that's something we know is fundamentally wrong.

Sometimes, you just have to go with your guts. :P

Why is it fundamentally wrong?  Sounds like you're a virtue ethicist or something.

[iago]

Also, utilitarianism is fundamentally broken. Any system where you can justify genocide is bad!

Why?

Because that's something we know is fundamentally wrong.

Sometimes, you just have to go with your guts. :P

Why is it fundamentally wrong?  Sounds like you're a virtue ethicist or something.

Do you disagree?

[Sidoh]

Do you disagree?

In general, no.  However, I'm rather convinced that utilitarianism is mostly correct about what is moral.  If it is justified from a utilitarian perspective, then I'm not sure I could object to it.

[iago]

Do you disagree?

In general, no.  However, I'm rather convinced that utilitarianism is mostly correct about what is moral.  If it is justified from a utilitarian perspective, then I'm not sure I could object to it.

So uh... the whole eugenics plan by Hitler, and killing off people who don't contribute to a better world.. you wouldn't object to that? If the government decided to round up everybody with an IQ below a certain level, that's ok?

Maybe convincing you that being vegan is awesome should come after we talk about why the holocaust was bad ;)

[Sidoh]

Do you disagree?

In general, no.  However, I'm rather convinced that utilitarianism is mostly correct about what is moral.  If it is justified from a utilitarian perspective, then I'm not sure I could object to it.

So uh... the whole eugenics plan by Hitler, and killing off people who don't contribute to a better world.. you wouldn't object to that? If the government decided to round up everybody with an IQ below a certain level, that's ok?

Maybe convincing you that being vegan is awesome should come after we talk about why the holocaust was bad ;)

If I knew for a fact that it would make the utility higher, then yes.  I don't think that'd ever be the case, though.

However, Mill responds to these kinds of arguments against utilitarianism in his essay.  Haven't you read it?

[iago]

Do you disagree?

In general, no.  However, I'm rather convinced that utilitarianism is mostly correct about what is moral.  If it is justified from a utilitarian perspective, then I'm not sure I could object to it.

So uh... the whole eugenics plan by Hitler, and killing off people who don't contribute to a better world.. you wouldn't object to that? If the government decided to round up everybody with an IQ below a certain level, that's ok?

Maybe convincing you that being vegan is awesome should come after we talk about why the holocaust was bad ;)

If I knew for a fact that it would make the utility higher, then yes.  I don't think that'd ever be the case, though.

However, Mill responds to these kinds of arguments against utilitarianism in his essay.  Haven't you read it?

Yeah, but not lately. I've also read counter-arguments. Sadly, I forget most of what I learned. :(

[Camel]

If the government decided to round up everybody with an IQ below a certain level, that's ok?

Absolutely not! Who's going to keep Burger King running?

[iago]

If the government decided to round up everybody with an IQ below a certain level, that's ok?

Absolutely not! Who's going to keep Burger King running?

Hopefully nobody ;)

Actually, BK is the one of only a few fast food chains here that has vegan options -- from what I understand, their veggie burger, onion rings, and fries are all vegan in Canada. Last time I was in an American BK, where the Canadian BKs have veggie burgers on the menu, the Americans had a double whopper (they don't even offer that in Canada!)

Another is KFC -- their veggie burger (in a wrap) is vegan. That also isn't offered in the US. :)

And Tacotime's bean burrito. I assume that exists in the US.

I don't really count Subway/Quiznos as fast food, but they're ok too.

[Hitmen]

Last time I was in an American BK, where the Canadian BKs have veggie burgers on the menu, the Americans had a double whopper (they don't even offer that in Canada!)

Here it goes up to triple.

[iago]

Last time I was in an American BK, where the Canadian BKs have veggie burgers on the menu, the Americans had a double whopper (they don't even offer that in Canada!)

Here it goes up to triple.

I think I'd have been happier *not* knowing that :)

Now that I think about it, I think I was a layer off.. I think we have double here but the veggie burger is replaced with triple.