Abortions

[Furious]

I didn't know where this would best fit, but if this isn't it I assume it will be moved to the corresponding forum.  This just happened to come up as a debate topic in my goverment class today, and then on another forum, I saw a court case relating to abortions.

I'll give my opinion later...

GO!

[MyndFyre]

Someone restrain me or I'll pull out my soapbox!

[Sidoh]

x86] link=topic=3354.msg33659#msg33659 date=1129259734]
Someone restrain me or I'll pull out my soapbox!

I'm interested in hearing your views Mynd.  Gogo!

[iago]

It's a very tricky question, and I'm unsure where I stand on it.  The main problem with abortions is people ask the wrong question. 

The question isn't whether a woman has the right to choose; rather, the question is at what point a human becomes a human. 

If we are a human the moment we are conceived, then I agree, abortion is wrng. 

If we aren't a human until a certain point, then abortion is fine. 

That's the question that ought to be answered. 

[Sidoh]

It's a very tricky question, and I'm unsure where I stand on it.  The main problem with abortions is people ask the wrong question. 

The question isn't whether a woman has the right to choose; rather, the question is at what point a human becomes a human. 

If we are a human the moment we are conceived, then I agree, abortion is wrng. 

If we aren't a human until a certain point, then abortion is fine. 

That's the question that ought to be answered. 

Yep, that's the entire issue encasing abortion.  However, it's like asking the question "What's your favorite color?"  It can't be answered without massive amounts of subjective data.

I believe abortion is completely wrong.

Somewhere in the bible (I'm really bad at quoting it, I'm sorry :() it says:  "I've known you since you were conceived."  So that's obviously where I stand.  :)

[iago]

Somewhere in the bible (I'm really bad at quoting it, I'm sorry :() it says:  "I've known you since you were conceived."  So that's obviously where I stand.  :)

The bible also says to kill homeless people, and to stone people who work on Sunday, and to not kill people. 

You can't believe something because it's in the bible -- the context and meaning is very important. 

But if your quote is close to right, there's another problem.  The word "conceive" has multiple meanings:

#  To become pregnant with (offspring).
# To form or develop in the mind; devise: conceive a plan to increase profits.

Who's to say it meant the first one? Perhaps He knows them since they were merely a thought?  Since He is omniscient (I think?), he would know about it.  That doesn't mean it's wrong to consider having a baby and not having it.  And I think it stands to reason that the bible passage might mean that. 

Anything from the Bible has to be taken with a grain of salt.  The true meaning is often buried. 

[Sidoh]

The bible also says to kill homeless people

If you're referring to this:

If a man will not work, he shall not eat

That's an extremely roughly translated assumption.  It says he shall not eat, not to kill them.

and to stone people who work on Sunday

That was before the resurrection of Christ.

You can't believe something because it's in the bible -- the context and meaning is very important. 

You're right, but you need to take your own advice.  :)

But if your quote is close to right, there's another problem.  The word "conceive" has multiple meanings:
#  To become pregnant with (offspring).
# To form or develop in the mind; devise: conceive a plan to increase profits.
Who's to say it meant the first one? Perhaps He knows them since they were merely a thought?  Since He is omniscient (I think?), he would know about it.  That doesn't mean it's wrong to consider having a baby and not having it.  And I think it stands to reason that the bible passage might mean that. 

I think the bible assumes you're not going to overthink every sentence it gives you.

Anything from the Bible has to be taken with a grain of salt.  The true meaning is often buried. 

My religion (Lutheranism) teaches that the Bible is the absolute word of God, not some philosophical writing.  Nothing in it should be taken figuratively.

[Newby]

I have no clue what happened to my post SO...

I have no problem taking the life of a human being, if that human being is going to cause suffering or harm onto other human beings.

(If the parents can't handle it, the kid has to go, to save the lives of the parents.)

[Sidoh]

I have no clue what happened to my post SO...

I have no problem taking the life of a human being, if that human being is going to cause suffering or harm onto other human beings.

(If the parents can't handle it, the kid has to go, to save the lives of the parents.)

That's actually the most justified argument I've heard for abortion in a long time.

However, I don't agree with it (for reasons you already know!).

Still, good job! :)

[iago]

The bible also says to kill homeless people

If you're referring to this:

If a man will not work, he shall not eat

That's an extremely roughly translated assumption.  It says he shall not eat, not to kill them.

and to stone people who work on Sunday

That was before the resurrection of Christ.

You can't believe something because it's in the bible -- the context and meaning is very important. 

You're right, but you need to take your own advice.  :)

But if your quote is close to right, there's another problem.  The word "conceive" has multiple meanings:
#  To become pregnant with (offspring).
# To form or develop in the mind; devise: conceive a plan to increase profits.
Who's to say it meant the first one? Perhaps He knows them since they were merely a thought?  Since He is omniscient (I think?), he would know about it.  That doesn't mean it's wrong to consider having a baby and not having it.  And I think it stands to reason that the bible passage might mean that. 

I think the bible assumes you're not going to overthink every sentence it gives you.

Anything from the Bible has to be taken with a grain of salt.  The true meaning is often buried. 

My religion (Lutheranism) teaches that the Bible is the absolute word of God, not some philosophical writing.  Nothing in it should be taken figuratively.

Here's some other verses I like:

1 Corinthians 11:14 says "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him."

1 Samuel 17:50 and 17:51 contradict each other. In verse 50, it says David killed Goliath without a sword; in the very next verse it says he killed him with the Philistine's sword.
1 Samuel 17:50 says "So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him." Verse 51 says "David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine's sword and drew it from the scabbard. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword."

Leviticus 15:19 says "When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening."
(I'm pretty sure I touch my mom in some form every day, and as you said, you can't overthink)

1 Timothy 3:11 says "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission." 1 Timothy, chapter 3 goes on to say that women should not be allowed to teach.


Anyway, let's just make sure we're clear of my point here.  My point ISN'T that the Bible is wrong or dumb or anything.  My point is that the Bible can't always be taken literally, and as such, you can't prove a point by saying, "Because it's in the bible". 

[Sidoh]

You need to read a lot more than just those quotes.  You need to read about 30 verses before and after each one of them.

The first is an evil person (Dililah, IIRC) talking about Samson's hair.

The second is talking about David slaying Goliath, an evil person who threatened God's people.

The third is talking about preaching.  And yes, Lutherans do not allow women to preach.

[MyndFyre]

1 Samuel 17:50 and 17:51 contradict each other. In verse 50, it says David killed Goliath without a sword; in the very next verse it says he killed him with the Philistine's sword.
1 Samuel 17:50 says "So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him." Verse 51 says "David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine's sword and drew it from the scabbard. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword."

Before I get to other things, I just wanted to point out that those two verses aren't contradictory.  You should read them again.

Gamesnake: the correct phrase is "Bible thumpers."  If you're going to go out of your way to make a religiously-bigotted remark, at least do it right.

[GameSnake]

Why did you remove my opinion on abortions.. it wasn't off topic or part of the off topic part of this discussion you moved. Anyway basically my opinion and a good essay theme for a classroom debate is to be somewhat nuetral, like say you agree that a child shouldnt be killed but its the womans choice to abort the fetus in her before a said time, like for instance 3 weeks, afterwhich a brain and heart and nervous system develope and it is therefore technically considerd a human.

[Sidoh]

Why did you remove my opinion on abortions.. it wasn't off topic or part of the off topic part of this discussion you moved. Anyway basically my opinion and a good essay theme for a classroom debate is to be somewhat nuetral, like say you agree that a child shouldnt be killed but its the womans choice to abort the fetus in her before a said time, like for instance 3 weeks, afterwhich a brain and heart and nervous system develope and it is therefore technically considerd a human.

Because it contained offensive material.  Learn to state your opinions without insults contained.

Additionally, we consider "bacteria" alive, so why shouldn't we consider a zygote to be alive?

[iago]

You need to read a lot more than just those quotes.  You need to read about 30 verses before and after each one of them.

The first is an evil person (Dililah, IIRC) talking about Samson's hair.

The second is talking about David slaying Goliath, an evil person who threatened God's people.

The third is talking about preaching.  And yes, Lutherans do not allow women to preach.

Then, out of curiosity, what's the context of the "I've known you since you were conceived"?  It seems that context is important :)

As I was trying to say, you have to be careful with quoting from the Bible :P