Abortions

[Armin]

The reason I left people of other religions out is because they're in the minority and there isn't enough of them at these forums to even discuss it.

In fact, not everybody who believes in God is religious.

Then they would fall into the first arguement, which is based off of pure logic and reasoning, compared to religion, which would throw in some faith as well. Why do you keep making me need to defend myself? You get what I'm trying to say.

[deadly7]

You think that Scientists can determine that? I think you're wrong.

I never said they could, I was just trying to prove that we don't even have a chance.

The necessary characteristics to debate this topic well:
a) Willing to give up their most basic beliefs
b) Not religious, but willing to consider religion
c) Willing to accept that what they see might not be all that exists
d) Attempting to discover the Truth, not looking to prove their own beliefs

(note: c and b are basically subset of a)

That is exactly what Philosophers strive for. It's also known as "Free Thinking". I know very few people like that, and I don't think any of you (or myself) fits into that. You're all out to prove yourselves right, not to understand the issue. That's the first mistake.

Is that directed towards me or other people? I just quickly skimmed the topic and read what most people believe, then came up with a conclusion. Anyways, I totally agree with you here, it's really hard to do and I've been trying to do it for a while.

It wasn't directed at anybody, it was directed at everybody in this thread, including myself. Nobody here is qualified to discuss this and come to a useful conclusion.

FAITH is dumb. I'd prefer to see proof. Read St. Augustine and Decartes.

And yes, this issue has plenty to do with the Bible.

Renee Descartes (how it should be spelled) has some fascinating works.  I've read some of his stuff.  I'd recommend it to anyone with any intelligence.

[Sidoh]

Renee Descartes (how it should be spelled) has some fascinating works.  I've read some of his stuff.  I'd recommend it to anyone with any intelligence.

Now you're saying because I dont want to read something that says faith is dumb (or at least that's what I'm understanding what it's implying) that I'm not intelligent?  I think you're incorrect.

[deadly7]

I think you interpreted it wrong.
By "anyone with any intelligence" I mean that you don't tell someone that doesn't understand things, and doesn't question anything.. basically just someone that accepts everything that's said to them.

[Sidoh]

I think you interpreted it wrong.
By "anyone with any intelligence" I mean that you don't tell someone that doesn't understand things, and doesn't question anything.. basically just someone that accepts everything that's said to them.

Are you saying you possess those traits?

Deadly, you're stupid.  Did you accept that? :D

Sorry, you set yourself up for it, buahhaah.

Anyway, I guess I did.  I don't think I should have interpreted it differently, but oh well. ^_~

[iago]

Renee Descartes (how it should be spelled) has some fascinating works.  I've read some of his stuff.  I'd recommend it to anyone with any intelligence.

Now you're saying because I dont want to read something that says faith is dumb (or at least that's what I'm understanding what it's implying) that I'm not intelligent?  I think you're incorrect.

He doesn't say faith is dumb; however, he rejects it at the start (in the book "Meditations on First Philosophy In which the existence of God and the real distinction of mind and body, are demonstrated").  He starts by considering the fact that everything we see, hear, smell, taste, and feel might be wrong.  In the style of The Matrix, type thing, that we're ruled by "The Evil Deceiver".  If you assume that everything you sense is false, what's left?  Just your own thoughts.  And those have to exist, he reasoned, which is where "Cogito Ergo Sum" ("I think equals I exist"; often translated "I think therefore I am") comes from (most of you have probably hear "cogito ergo sum" before):

I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it follow that I too do not exist? No: if I convinced myself of something then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who is deliberately and constantly deceiving me. In that case I too undoubtedly exist, if he is deceiving me ... the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind.

Based on that, and what has come to be known as the ontological argument, he proves that it is necessary for a God to exist for the rest of the world to exist.  Note, however, that he isn't talking about the Christian God, but it is an idea with certain characteristics that I dont remember all of (omnipotent, omniscient, infinite, unmaleable, etc.), and follows with the distinction of the "Mind" and of "Matter", and how they aren't the same (which I've argued here before). It's really a very good read. 

References I used for quotes and to jog my memory (since it's been over 2 years since I read this):
http://www.evsc.k12.in.us/schoolzone/schools/EMPOWER/harrison/th/decartes.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Descartes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations_on_First_Philosophy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument

[Sidoh]

I see.

Nice explanation, by the way.

[Screenor]

iago, do you happen to have a link to an eBook I could read this from? I'm in need of something to keep me interested, other then games, so if you would be able to that'd be great.

How many books does he have on this, is it sequals or all into one book, by the way? I was baptised Christian, but my actual beliefs stray from normal Christian beliefs (which I wont go into, since religions are such a touchy subject apon most)

[iago]

I don't have it in eBook, I have it in hard copy.  It's one of the cheaper books I had to buy for school.  The entire religious argument is in the one book I mentioned, but I warn you that it's not an easy read :P

It's $7.95 on Amazon, or starts at $2.96. 

[Screenor]

I don't have it in eBook, I have it in hard copy.  It's one of the cheaper books I had to buy for school.  The entire religious argument is in the one book I mentioned, but I warn you that it's not an easy read :P

It's $7.95 on Amazon, or starts at $2.96. 

How big it is is not problem, I need something that's atleast 800+ pages, would you be able to give me a general idea of what the font size is? I can't stand small print.

[TheSickEmpire]

I don't have it in eBook, I have it in hard copy.  It's one of the cheaper books I had to buy for school.  The entire religious argument is in the one book I mentioned, but I warn you that it's not an easy read :P

It's $7.95 on Amazon, or starts at $2.96. 

How big it is is not problem, I need something that's atleast 800+ pages, would you be able to give me a general idea of what the font size is? I can't stand small print.

You don't have to buy it, just go to the library. They should have it. Hell, they may even have it in big print for the old people.

[iago]

I don't have it in eBook, I have it in hard copy.  It's one of the cheaper books I had to buy for school.  The entire religious argument is in the one book I mentioned, but I warn you that it's not an easy read :P

It's $7.95 on Amazon, or starts at $2.96. 

How big it is is not problem, I need something that's atleast 800+ pages, would you be able to give me a general idea of what the font size is? I can't stand small print.

It's not long, it's probably ~150 pages.  I don't think I've ever seen a Philosophy book over 150 pages.  But it's just dense, and not an easy read. 

You can probably actually find the entire book online if you look.  It was written hundreds of years ago, before the whole copyrighting thing. 

[Screenor]

I don't have it in eBook, I have it in hard copy.  It's one of the cheaper books I had to buy for school.  The entire religious argument is in the one book I mentioned, but I warn you that it's not an easy read :P

It's $7.95 on Amazon, or starts at $2.96. 

How big it is is not problem, I need something that's atleast 800+ pages, would you be able to give me a general idea of what the font size is? I can't stand small print.

It's not long, it's probably ~150 pages.  I don't think I've ever seen a Philosophy book over 150 pages.  But it's just dense, and not an easy read. 

You can probably actually find the entire book online if you look.  It was written hundreds of years ago, before the whole copyrighting thing. 

You mean smart man eyes closed? :( Dis make scwreenor sad.

[iago]

I don't think I've ever seen a Philosophy book over 150 pages.

I was thinking about this, when I rememberd: Plato's The Republic is probably around 500 pages.  But it's painful++ to read. 

[MyndFyre]

Ahh yes.  Apology, written by Plato about Socrates, is much, much shorter, and much easier to digest.  ;)