Author Topic: The "Post Your Character" Thread  (Read 62427 times)

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Offline Blaze

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2006, 01:25:49 am »
I thought the exact same thing, I destroyed that thing after getting it from the quest.  :P
And like a fool I believed myself, and thought I was somebody else...

Offline Sidoh

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2006, 01:28:11 am »
Hehe.  I suppose I'd kind of like it for BG's when fighting warriors to remove rend/deep wound so I can vanish, but I'd much rather have Talismen of Arathor + Insignia of Alliance.

Offline Screenor

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2006, 12:57:26 pm »
I like my Heroism card + Insignia. 8)

Offline Sidoh

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2006, 02:40:51 pm »
Heroism is nice.  I've been using Blue Dragon since the second Darkmoon Faire.  The thing is so awesome for priests, but I think it would suck for other classes.  My spirit is like 450 with buffs. x_x

Offline Screenor

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2006, 09:59:29 pm »
Heroism is nice.  I've been using Blue Dragon since the second Darkmoon Faire.  The thing is so awesome for priests, but I think it would suck for other classes.  My spirit is like 450 with buffs. x_x

Hah, well, Thorezard (TSE) got his Blue Dragon today and hates it, he doesn't like how low the proc is. (Heroism has an amazing proc rate.)

Offline Sidoh

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2006, 10:38:47 pm »
Yeah, but his gear sucks and he's a fucking shadow priest.  I don't know why you would even consider buying it if your main intention is PvP.  If you run out of mana, you're probably screwed anyway.  That's really only useful if you're a healbot, which he is obviously not.

He pissed me off earlier this week when he said Trascendence sucks.

Blue Dragon is absolutely amazing when you regenerate 110 mana a tick.  Worth every damn penny if you're intentions are healing instead of face melting and trying to be a mage.

Offline Screenor

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2006, 11:17:07 pm »
Yeah, but his gear sucks and he's a fucking shadow priest.  I don't know why you would even consider buying it if your main intention is PvP.  If you run out of mana, you're probably screwed anyway.  That's really only useful if you're a healbot, which he is obviously not.

He pissed me off earlier this week when he said Trascendence sucks.

Blue Dragon is absolutely amazing when you regenerate 110 mana a tick.  Worth every damn penny if you're intentions are healing instead of face melting and trying to be a mage.
I think the reason he said Trans sucks is because...well, he likes to deal damage. (Even though he's wrong that Trans sucks, I think his take on why it sucks is the reasoning for it). Although I do think if he wanted to deal damage he should have rolled a rogue or a warrior.

He told me the other day you and him talked about how he said a warrior could out dps, and you simply told him to shut up, that I didn't agree with, because they can very easily deal more damage then rogues if they're Fury/Arms. (It's bullshit, I know, but Blizzard is stupid and doesn't realize damage is THE only thing us rogues are good at.)

But in all honesty, nothing can beat a good shadowpriest, they're just so...gah, nerf please.

Offline Furious

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2006, 02:38:48 pm »
My 16 Rogue on Maelstrom for the x86 guild

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Offline Sidoh

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2006, 03:05:14 pm »
I think the reason he said Trans sucks is because...well, he likes to deal damage. (Even though he's wrong that Trans sucks, I think his take on why it sucks is the reasoning for it). Although I do think if he wanted to deal damage he should have rolled a rogue or a warrior.

He told me the other day you and him talked about how he said a warrior could out dps, and you simply told him to shut up, that I didn't agree with, because they can very easily deal more damage then rogues if they're Fury/Arms. (It's bullshit, I know, but Blizzard is stupid and doesn't realize damage is THE only thing us rogues are good at.)

But in all honesty, nothing can beat a good shadowpriest, they're just so...gah, nerf please.

If he thinks Transcendence sucks at all (it's the best set gear in the game for a healing priest, hands down; no questions asked), he should not be running MC, BWL or any other instance.  Shadow Priests are crushed in terms of pure damage output in PvE instances.  I have never seen a Priest outdamage a mage, warlock, rogue or any other primary DPS class that wasn't AFK, disconnected or preoccupied.  Their only worthwhile place is in PvP.  My guild won't even allow Priests to stay Shadow spec during raids (if you want to dish out the 100g a week to switch back and forth, I don't think they'll care, but...).  Despite his obvious illusions, being shadow spec in shitty gear makes a huge impact on your healing abilities.

Their are lots of classes that can beat a Shadow Priest in PvP.  Warlock, mage, warrior (fury), shaman and a good paladin all have an awesome chance of beating a shadow priest 1v1.

Also, fury warriors don't necessarily out damage rogues.  They outlive them.  They generally have more HP, much higher armor and a lot more defense.  Their DPS is also crazy, but try going to a 40 man raid instance where there are concentrated healers on both classes.  I haven't run damage meters in a while, but I don't think I've ever seen the fury warriors on top of the rogues.

I told him to shut up because I was frusturated with his unessesary condescending attitude.  He thinkks being a shadow priest is a much better choice than being a healing priest, when it's obvious that the intended purpose of a priest is to heal.  Sure, they can do well in PvP, but so can any class with the right gear, strategy and team.

Offline Screenor

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2006, 04:17:24 am »
I think the reason he said Trans sucks is because...well, he likes to deal damage. (Even though he's wrong that Trans sucks, I think his take on why it sucks is the reasoning for it). Although I do think if he wanted to deal damage he should have rolled a rogue or a warrior.

He told me the other day you and him talked about how he said a warrior could out dps, and you simply told him to shut up, that I didn't agree with, because they can very easily deal more damage then rogues if they're Fury/Arms. (It's bullshit, I know, but Blizzard is stupid and doesn't realize damage is THE only thing us rogues are good at.)

But in all honesty, nothing can beat a good shadowpriest, they're just so...gah, nerf please.

If he thinks Transcendence sucks at all (it's the best set gear in the game for a healing priest, hands down; no questions asked), he should not be running MC, BWL or any other instance.  Shadow Priests are crushed in terms of pure damage output in PvE instances.  I have never seen a Priest outdamage a mage, warlock, rogue or any other primary DPS class that wasn't AFK, disconnected or preoccupied.  Their only worthwhile place is in PvP.  My guild won't even allow Priests to stay Shadow spec during raids (if you want to dish out the 100g a week to switch back and forth, I don't think they'll care, but...).  Despite his obvious illusions, being shadow spec in shitty gear makes a huge impact on your healing abilities.

Their are lots of classes that can beat a Shadow Priest in PvP.  Warlock, mage, warrior (fury), shaman and a good paladin all have an awesome chance of beating a shadow priest 1v1.

Also, fury warriors don't necessarily out damage rogues.  They outlive them.  They generally have more HP, much higher armor and a lot more defense.  Their DPS is also crazy, but try going to a 40 man raid instance where there are concentrated healers on both classes.  I haven't run damage meters in a while, but I don't think I've ever seen the fury warriors on top of the rogues.

I told him to shut up because I was frusturated with his unessesary condescending attitude.  He thinkks being a shadow priest is a much better choice than being a healing priest, when it's obvious that the intended purpose of a priest is to heal.  Sure, they can do well in PvP, but so can any class with the right gear, strategy and team.

Here's the thing, you play a priest, and have no need to watch the damage that we do. Sure, you're leveling a rogue, but you wont know what I mean till you take that to MC/End game PvP, and you'll realize what's going on.

This is how it works:

Fury warriors can now come amazingly close to how much damage we deal, sometimes even surpassing us. If they pull aggro, they can throw on their shield and tank till the MT regains aggro, rogues will be 1/2 shotted by the boss/mob.

You see, while Mages/Priests (cloth wearers) are on an even footing with a rogues' armor, warlocks, (also cloth wearers), easily exceed our armor/hp, I have never seen a decently geared warlock below 4.2k health, and that's normally a minimal. Keep in mind, these classes can also easily deal as much, or more damage in a single shot then us, and it will have nothing based on the target's armor, our attacks do. And did I mention, next patch mages are getting a 30% aggro reduction too all spells cast talent? Meaning as long as they have mana, they will _never_ pull aggro.

Now, aside from this, we are kited by nearly every class that wants to do so, rogue's are the most cooldown reliant class in the whole game, and our cooldowns are amazingly long, sure, we'll put up a good fight once, but that's once every 5 minutes, after that anyone that wants to can come up and destroy us. A Rogue can't reasonably hope to win against most equally geared/skilled opponents without blowing multiple cooldowns, and here's a list to prove it:

Mage - Vanish to break FN. Sprint to regain ground after Blink/Chilled. Potentially need a Blind to recover from the kite.
Hunter - Sprint to regain ground after FD/Trap/Snare. Evasion to avoid WIngclip/Imp wingclip once melee range is regained. Potentially need a Blind to recover from the kite. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Druid - Vanish to break Entangle. Evasion to avoid Bash root through to full heal. Adrenaline Rush to overcome Frenzied regeneration. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Warrior - Evasion to avoid MS/Hamstring. AR/BF to overcome 6000 odd hp and more armour than a Sherman Tank. Potentially need a Blind/Bandage. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Priest - Sprint to regain ground on Fear Kite. Potentially need a Blind to recover from the kite. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Warlock - As above in regards to kite. Blind to disorient Warlock while pet [succubus] is killed. AR/BF to get through SL/5000+ hp. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Shaman - Sprint/Blind to recover from Frostshock/Earthbind kite. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Paladin - Blind to break BoP. AR/BF to get through Plate/Shield. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.

And here's another one that you'll love, regaurdless of what gear we have, the damage of our few abilities will never go up, for example:

Eviscerate, Rupture, Garrote, three of our six damage dealing abilities that will NEVER change, regaurdless of if we're in all greens, or full tier 3.

Vanish is another one, no other skill has been broken as much as this, some instances this wont even bring us out of combat (BWL/MC/some parts of ZG), for fucks sake, you can go into combat while still stealthed. Explain this please.

Now to usefull stunlocks (Rogue vs Hunter):

Blind vs Scattershot.
Blind - 10 second disorient. 5 minute cooldown. Requires an expensive reagent only acquired through a specific profession.
vs
Scattershot - 4 second disorient. 30 second cooldown. Requires no reagent.

See, the problem is this, the only thing rogues are good at, is doing damage. We can't buff our groups like warriors, mages, priests, warlocks, hunters, paladins, and shamans. We can't tank, we can't dispell, we can't heal either. When all those classes come even the least bit close to dealing as much damage as us, we lose our liabllity in the raid.

Do you know how much a full tier 2 rogue can BS crit a full tier 2 shaman? A mail wearing class? Take a guess.

400. That is 400 damage (a dot does more damage in 6 seconds then this), and a BS takes more then half our energy, while the shaman can instant cast crit us for nearly 2k. While also impairing our movement.

Stealth - Every class has something to get us out of stealth, even though we can be seen from 20+ yards away in some occasions, we can be dotted, shouted, and even resist an AoE and still be nocked out of stealth. When a rogue losses his ability to be seen, he's open game for anyone who wants an easy bit of honor.

Now, in all of this, did you know that a Hunter, for every 1 agility, they get 2 AP? For a rogue, for every 1 agility, we also get 1 AP. Now how is it, that a ranged class, barely seeing the likes of melee, gets more AP then a melee class? This I'd love to know. Same goes for Strength, 1 str, 1 AP.

I can't wait till you hit 60, go to end game, do pvp, and then you will immediately realize what makes rogues so frustrated. Trust me, every single other rogue that has played this class will say the exact same thing if they understand what's going on.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2006, 06:46:53 am »
Here's the thing, you play a priest, and have no need to watch the damage that we do. Sure, you're leveling a rogue, but you wont know what I mean till you take that to MC/End game PvP, and you'll realize what's going on.

While playing a class that doesn't do DPS (or any class, for that matter) never necessitates knowing who's doing how much damage, I do have a perfectly valid reason for doing so: curiousity.  It's not hurting anyone, so why can't I run damagemeter and glance at it when I feel the urge?  Have you ran damage meters inside of a lengthly PvE instance?  I honestly can't say I've ever seen a Warrior in top 10.

Fury warriors can now come amazingly close to how much damage we deal, sometimes even surpassing us. If they pull aggro, they can throw on their shield and tank till the MT regains aggro, rogues will be 1/2 shotted by the boss/mob.

I really don't think so.  Remember, we're talking from two different perspectives here: PvE, which is a much more accurate measure of static damage output with few other variables accounted, and PvP, which almost always includes unforeseen consequences.  I'm not arguing that Warriors suck at DPS.  I'm arguing that Rogues are better at flat damage output.  If this was not true, I don't think my raid would be taking 5-7 Rogues to Blackwing Lair weekly.  They could just find a bunch of DPS warriors and replace them if they were just plain better at damage output.

You see, while Mages/Priests (cloth wearers) are on an even footing with a rogues' armor, warlocks, (also cloth wearers), easily exceed our armor/hp, I have never seen a decently geared warlock below 4.2k health, and that's normally a minimal. Keep in mind, these classes can also easily deal as much, or more damage in a single shot then us, and it will have nothing based on the target's armor, our attacks do. And did I mention, next patch mages are getting a 30% aggro reduction too all spells cast talent? Meaning as long as they have mana, they will _never_ pull aggro.

This I know.  Actually, I'm pretty sure Priests have the highest Armor rating out of all three caster classes.  Inner Fire (without any talent improvements) increases armor by some 1200 points.  Frost Armor is somewhere around 600 and Demon Armor has a similar number.  Warlocks *always* have more HP, as you've noted, but that's for an obvious reason.  For a Warlock, mana and health are nearly interchangable.  For a Priest, or much less, a Mage, this is not nearly as true.  I think the single hardest class I had to deal with in the 40's bracket was a Warlock.  There were a few Warriors that posed a threat, but that's generally because they traveled with a healer or some other arbitrary assortment of smelly horde friends.  I truely dominated that bracket, as much as that is possible in this game.  I never encountered a person or a class that I simply *could not* solo.  There were a few horde players that were very good, but I rarely had a problem taking any of them out.

Now, aside from this, we are kited by nearly every class that wants to do so, rogue's are the most cooldown reliant class in the whole game, and our cooldowns are amazingly long, sure, we'll put up a good fight once, but that's once every 5 minutes, after that anyone that wants to can come up and destroy us. A Rogue can't reasonably hope to win against most equally geared/skilled opponents without blowing multiple cooldowns, and here's a list to prove it:

Yes, that's very true.  However, unless it's a frost mage (that was probably the single hardest class for me to solo, but I did manage it.  there was a frost mage in the bracket by the name of "eleon" who, upon several occasions, expressed the extreme respect he had for me.  I realize this is a totally different game because I was not or am not 60, but I hope you recognize that Rogues aren't a completely broken class), Crippling Poison proves to be a viable remedy to this issue in many cases.  I use it on both of my swords in every occasion that presents the slightest possiblity of a PvP encounter.  I even put it on my offhand after I get jumped.

Mage - Vanish to break FN. Sprint to regain ground after Blink/Chilled. Potentially need a Blind to recover from the kite.
Hunter - Sprint to regain ground after FD/Trap/Snare. Evasion to avoid WIngclip/Imp wingclip once melee range is regained. Potentially need a Blind to recover from the kite. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Druid - Vanish to break Entangle. Evasion to avoid Bash root through to full heal. Adrenaline Rush to overcome Frenzied regeneration. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Warrior - Evasion to avoid MS/Hamstring. AR/BF to overcome 6000 odd hp and more armour than a Sherman Tank. Potentially need a Blind/Bandage. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Priest - Sprint to regain ground on Fear Kite. Potentially need a Blind to recover from the kite. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Warlock - As above in regards to kite. Blind to disorient Warlock while pet [succubus] is killed. AR/BF to get through SL/5000+ hp. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Shaman - Sprint/Blind to recover from Frostshock/Earthbind kite. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.
Paladin - Blind to break BoP. AR/BF to get through Plate/Shield. Vanish/Blind for stunlock.

Yes, I've had to use all of those strategies before.  But as aforementioned, if crippling poison goes off (and the class it is used against is inable to remove it), I can generally tear through their hitpoints pretty quickly.

And here's another one that you'll love, regaurdless of what gear we have, the damage of our few abilities will never go up, for example:

Eviscerate, Rupture, Garrote, three of our six damage dealing abilities that will NEVER change, regaurdless of if we're in all greens, or full tier 3.

The base damage may not, but the damage analyzed over a shortly extended period of time will increase phenominally.  Stamina allows more endurance in battle; you're able to stay alive longer to deal more damage before you're killed.  Agility increases Dodge chance and Critical strike chance, which are wholly self explanatory.  You stay alive longer and deal more damage.  Strength increases melee damage.  In addition to these points, I'd also like to point out that the three abilities you listed are but a small portion of a Rogue's damage output.  In order to get a 5 point eviscerate off, I probably do roughly 700 - 3,000 damage with sinister strikes alone.  Add in normal attacks after a Slice & Dice and you've got another couple of thousand, on average.  Especially as a combat Rogue, damage is not about the huge numbers you see fly above the enemy's head.  Other classes can validly epeen about their huge critical strikes with spells and attacks, but Rogues are sustained damage.  This is more true of a Combat Rogue than of one with most talent points applied in the Sublety or Assissination trees, but it still remains fact for said Rogues--especially in PvE.  You stand behind Onyxia, spam Backstab, Feint and Eviscerate.  Sustained damage. :)

In essence, gear has a huge impact on a Rogue's damage output.  I'm not saying you said differently, but it certainly seemed like I should clarify that for our less informed readers. ;)

Vanish is another one, no other skill has been broken as much as this, some instances this wont even bring us out of combat (BWL/MC/some parts of ZG), for fucks sake, you can go into combat while still stealthed. Explain this please.

I'm actually pretty certain it's working as intended in that regard.  Blizzard doesn't want anyone breaking out of combat in those sorts of boss encounters.  Hell, I've drug into combat when I was 400 yards from the rest of my raid who started a boss battle preemptively.

Now to usefull stunlocks (Rogue vs Hunter):

Blind vs Scattershot.
Blind - 10 second disorient. 5 minute cooldown. Requires an expensive reagent only acquired through a specific profession.
vs
Scattershot - 4 second disorient. 30 second cooldown. Requires no reagent.

No argument there.  I hate Scattershot.  It really needs to be nerfed.

See, the problem is this, the only thing rogues are good at, is doing damage. We can't buff our groups like warriors, mages, priests, warlocks, hunters, paladins, and shamans. We can't tank, we can't dispell, we can't heal either. When all those classes come even the least bit close to dealing as much damage as us, we lose our liabllity in the raid.

You do realize what you're implying has to be incorrect, right?  I have never encountered a raid that brings fury warriors over rogues.  We bring lots of Rogues to BWL, AQ20/AQ40, MC, ZG and every other high end instance.  Rogues have not lost their viability.  As pessimistic as most Rogues I've known seem, Blizzard would never allow one class to completely lose its viability.

Do you know how much a full tier 2 rogue can BS crit a full tier 2 shaman? A mail wearing class? Take a guess.

400. That is 400 damage (a dot does more damage in 6 seconds then this), and a BS takes more then half our energy, while the shaman can instant cast crit us for nearly 2k. While also impairing our movement.

Have you tried fighting a Shaman as a Combat Rogue?  I'm fully aware that it's a completely different game, but once again, I must bring up the out-worldly PvP experience I've had.  One of the best people horde-side was a Shaman: Halbur.  He was very good, but I almost always managed to take him 1v1.  He had a Kang of the Decapitator... windfury weapon.  Yeah... he hurt.  I got 3+ combo points on him, used expose armor and sinister strike'd him to death (stuns, kicks and any other abilities where needed).  I know... it's a different game.  He'd try to kite my occasionally.  The tough thing with Shamans is that they can dispel poisons... grrr...

Stealth - Every class has something to get us out of stealth, even though we can be seen from 20+ yards away in some occasions, we can be dotted, shouted, and even resist an AoE and still be nocked out of stealth. When a rogue losses his ability to be seen, he's open game for anyone who wants an easy bit of honor.

Well yeah.  If Stealth was an inpenetrable barrier into invunerability for any class, I would think it needs a nerf.  Stealth is a valuable tool, but as I'm positive you've recognized, relying on it too heavily is a very bad idea indeed.  This is one of the stronger reasons I prefer Combat to Assassination or Sublety.  There is nowhere near as strong a reliance on an opening move.

Now, in all of this, did you know that a Hunter, for every 1 agility, they get 2 AP? For a rogue, for every 1 agility, we also get 1 AP. Now how is it, that a ranged class, barely seeing the likes of melee, gets more AP then a melee class? This I'd love to know. Same goes for Strength, 1 str, 1 AP.

Hunters also wear mail.  While it may not seem fair, giving Rogues mail armor doesn't make much sense.  I wouldn't expect to have more armor than a Hunter, but it does not seem fair at all.

I can't wait till you hit 60, go to end game, do pvp, and then you will immediately realize what makes rogues so frustrated. Trust me, every single other rogue that has played this class will say the exact same thing if they understand what's going on.

I don't expect to be a dominant part of the level 60 Battlegrounds bracket by any means.  I've already fully recognized the fact that Rogues aren't nearly as viable in the 60 bracket as they are in the lower ones.  I do, however, disagree that they aren't an excellent melee damage class.  I'll have to run damage meters this week. :)

By the way, Screenor, I am in no way being condescending or telling you how to "play your class."  I have no doubt you know better than me--especially in the realm of PvP.  I've stated what I know to be true from my experiences.  Just because I play a Priest does not mean I can't understand other aspects of the game, such as DPS. :P

Offline Screenor

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2006, 05:28:01 pm »
I was infact talking about fury warriors in PvE, if they have a healer they'll practically never die in pvp. ( -_- )

See, thing is, I also dominated in the lower brackets, but at 60 all classes finally have their anti-rogue abilities, 40-49 is...well, not so much. Another thing is you're amazingly twinked out, I wont lie, your gear is insane. Now, from what I saw last night when I was on Mythix's account, was a 60 druid potting against you, this essentially says one of two things to me, either people on your server suck an amazing amount at pvp, or you're just very good. (You're good regaurdless, but a druid potting says a lot to me, I personally have NEVER seen a druid even carry a potion.) Not to mention the hunter, who barely had any life, even while you had 4+ gaurds on you, couldn't get away, hell, he didn't even FD.

What I think about the Fury Warrior's situation is, you probably don't have them, and if you do, they're not geared out. Most fury warriors will be dual wielding axes, and very good ones, at that. See, warrior's have an unlimited amount of attacks if they can just hit the target, rogues actually have to wait till their energy regens. (This from a dagger point of view, I've never seen a sword rogue get into the top ten for pve.)

Thing is, I'm not actually talking about now, when Naxx comes out, they WILL out dps rogues. The gear upgrades for warriors are a lot better then for rogues in Naxx. For example, the best known dagger so far, is only one damage point higher then the AQ dagger which only drops off C'Thun. From there, you either need to hit GM and get that dagger (one damage point lower then AQ) or drop down and get a Perdition's Blade. Which is a lot less then either of them.

Now, sure you like being swords, but when you get tired of just spamming SS, I guarentee you'll switch to daggers. And if you can't get into an MC raid (which you probably wont, being a rogue), the best dagger you will ever be able to get will be a Lobo, which will take at the very least, two and a half weeks, 5 hours a day of farming rep in AV to get.

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, this is just how it goes.

For your mage comment, technically...no. A mage can just rank 1 frost bolt you and then fireball, pyro blast, fire blast you, each of which will hit for atleast 950 damage (non-crit). Now, I'm going to assume you open with cheap shot on most mages, well, here's the thing, they can immediately blink out of it. If they're frost spec, don't even expect to be able to sap them, because then they can just ice block out of it. Also, their mana shield is not on a cooldown, if you break one, they can throw up another.

Now, for mages, sure they're not impossible, I killed one that got the jump on me today, but did I have to blow some much needed cooldowns to do so? Yeah. Blind, twice, Vanish once, sprint once. The entire battle cost me about 1g in total as far as reagents go.

Crippling poison -- Yeah, it's a nice thing to have, but you need to first apply two (5 seconds), stall the target enough so they actually proc, and then hope they don't have a trinket/poison clense/shapeshift to get out of it. (Note that very few classes don't have a way of getting out of it, I beleive warlock and mage, priest may as well.)

Sustained damage -- Sure, the first three attacks, and even then you're doing it on a boss, which is about, what, 600 damage total? Assuming it's non-crits. Other then the three abilities I named, we have two other damage dealing skills, backstab (only useable with daggers), and ambush (used once a fight, two if you really want to waste vanish).

Vanish -- When I say it's broken, I mean this:

If you vanish, you can still be hit back out of it. This used to not happen. For boss incounters, I don't mean dropping combat, I mean dropping threat, a hunter can feign death, and all his threat is gone, if a rogue vanishes, his threat is still there. (This happened in 1.10, wasn't like that before.) As far as getting out of combat, I agree, they shouldn't be able to leave, but that's what the skill is used for, so technically it really isn't working.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2006, 09:17:51 pm »
I was infact talking about fury warriors in PvE, if they have a healer they'll practically never die in pvp. ( -_- )

Haha, yeah.  Even in 10-19 this is true.  Warriors are awesome in that aspect.  I'm hardly twinked out compared to the freaks with +15 agility to gloves at level 19 and Arakasi (he's registered on these forums) and I still own.  Him (Paladin) + Me (Warrior) own almost any Horde. : D

See, thing is, I also dominated in the lower brackets, but at 60 all classes finally have their anti-rogue abilities, 40-49 is...well, not so much. Another thing is you're amazingly twinked out, I wont lie, your gear is insane. Now, from what I saw last night when I was on Mythix's account, was a 60 druid potting against you, this essentially says one of two things to me, either people on your server suck an amazing amount at pvp, or you're just very good. (You're good regaurdless, but a druid potting says a lot to me, I personally have NEVER seen a druid even carry a potion.) Not to mention the hunter, who barely had any life, even while you had 4+ gaurds on you, couldn't get away, hell, he didn't even FD.

Which ones have they gained that makes it so much harder for a Rogue?  Honestly, I think the hardest thing for a Rogue in PvP at higher levels (please, correct me if I'm wrong) is there's a lot more organized PvP.  For me, I do really well 1v1, but if there's many more, I can rarely handle it unless I have a healer or some help.  In the lower brackets, there are rarely preforms, even though the skill that the horde (at least on my server) brings to the battlefield is inspiring, to say the least.  This was especially true after discovering I had been facing almost entirely pickup groups with a lot of regular members.  No preemptive coordination... just pure, on-the-fly teamwork.  As we've already both said, though, the brackets are much different.  I am simply inquiring the major difference between 60 and non-60 PvP.

What I think about the Fury Warrior's situation is, you probably don't have them, and if you do, they're not geared out. Most fury warriors will be dual wielding axes, and very good ones, at that. See, warrior's have an unlimited amount of attacks if they can just hit the target, rogues actually have to wait till their energy regens. (This from a dagger point of view, I've never seen a sword rogue get into the top ten for pve.)

In my raid?  I'm absolutely positive we have Fury warriors.  If you're interested, I can introduce you to some of them.  They're all very well geared, too.  One is an ex-Grand Marshal, another is an ex-Marshal.  There are a few more, but those two attend nearly every raid.  One of them has Akashandi (Not sure on the spelling.  It's the sword that drops off of Nefarian that does 81 DPS), the other usually dual wields the GM swords or uses one of the two-handed GM weapons.  You realize that you're completely ignoring the fact that Rogues have white damage?  I don't know how considerable it is for you, but I have white critical strikes that linger in the 400-500 range.  With a 21% chane to land a critical strike, I think it's pretty safe to say that it is pretty foolish to ignore that damage.  As I've already mentioned, Rogues are much more of a sustained, rapid damage class than something like a Warrior, who does huge bursts of damage in much longer time periods.

You've never seen a Rogue in top ten for PvE?  I'll be sure to screenshot damage meters this week in AQ and BWL.  I don't think I've ever not seen our two sword rogues in the top ten.  They almost always outdamage the dagger rogues.  One of these two uses Chromatically Tempered Blade and Maladeath, Runesword of the Black Dragonflight.  The other uses Brutality Blade and Maladeath.  The one I have the most respect for (he's the class leader and an incredibly talented Rogue) is Sublety spec'd.  A sword Rogue.  Sublety.  I know he has a few points in Combat, but he has enough in Sublety to have Hemorrhage.  Remember -- endgame PvE is a much different game.  You don't have to worry about getting ganked as long as you know how to use Feint on cooldown.  As for PvP, I could not say.  I have a decently close friend who is shooting for Grand Marshal (he's well on his way.  A few weeks ago, he was Knight-Captain.  Today he made Marshal) who is a sword spec'd rogue.  I'll have to ask him how he does.

Thing is, I'm not actually talking about now, when Naxx comes out, they WILL out dps rogues. The gear upgrades for warriors are a lot better then for rogues in Naxx. For example, the best known dagger so far, is only one damage point higher then the AQ dagger which only drops off C'Thun. From there, you either need to hit GM and get that dagger (one damage point lower then AQ) or drop down and get a Perdition's Blade. Which is a lot less then either of them.

You're not even considering Swords, Maces or Daggers.

http://wowwalkthroughs.free.fr/The%20Hungering%20Cold.html

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=44357

That is a MASSIVE upgrade.  Look at it! 58.5 DPS to 73.1 DPS?  Yeah... that's a huge upgrade.  Christ, the speed is even slower!  That thing is awesome! 

Now, sure you like being swords, but when you get tired of just spamming SS, I guarentee you'll switch to daggers. And if you can't get into an MC raid (which you probably wont, being a rogue), the best dagger you will ever be able to get will be a Lobo, which will take at the very least, two and a half weeks, 5 hours a day of farming rep in AV to get.

Why would I get tired of spamming Sinister Strike?  Thus far, I've been more impressed with the damage output of swords.  It seems that Sinister Strike is a much more viable attack because Backstab requires you to be behind the enemy, which can often be prevented by simple manuvering techniques.  As I've said several times, though, I'll let you know when I get there. ;)

I'm actually fairly certain I already have a spot in an MC raid.  Having been with the same guild for several months allows these things. :)

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, this is just how it goes.

Yeah, I know.  I'm not disagreeing with you.  I'm just saying that I'll play the game the way I want to.  If I see a change that needs to be made to better my strategy, I'll take your advice into account, but until then, I'm going to stay swords.  The guy I mentioned earlier is 13 years old.  Unless he's doing pretty well (from talk on the forums, it sounds like he is), I don't think his attention span would permit him to stay the same spec for several months while enduring constant ass beatings.  I've known the kid for over a year now.  He has severe ADHD.

For your mage comment, technically...no. A mage can just rank 1 frost bolt you and then fireball, pyro blast, fire blast you, each of which will hit for atleast 950 damage (non-crit). Now, I'm going to assume you open with cheap shot on most mages, well, here's the thing, they can immediately blink out of it. If they're frost spec, don't even expect to be able to sap them, because then they can just ice block out of it. Also, their mana shield is not on a cooldown, if you break one, they can throw up another.

Actually, I generally try to open with Garrote on a mage unless I've just seen them burn their Blink ability or the place of battle is pseudo-constrained--enough to where I can catch up to them after the opening move.

Now, for mages, sure they're not impossible, I killed one that got the jump on me today, but did I have to blow some much needed cooldowns to do so? Yeah. Blind, twice, Vanish once, sprint once. The entire battle cost me about 1g in total as far as reagents go.

There are some classes that simply do well against other classes.  On the rare occasion I PvP on my Priest, Rogues constantly gank me.  Sure, I'm not Shadow specc'd, but I know a few Knight-Champion priests that are holy and discipline.

Crippling poison -- Yeah, it's a nice thing to have, but you need to first apply two (5 seconds), stall the target enough so they actually proc, and then hope they don't have a trinket/poison clense/shapeshift to get out of it. (Note that very few classes don't have a way of getting out of it, I beleive warlock and mage, priest may as well.)

Paladin: Yes, but rarely need to worry about them.  They're not very good at kiting anyway... no ranged attack!
Shaman: Yes, they have at least two ways.  I always check to see if the blue totems are Poison Cleansing and gank them if they are.  Shamans rarely expect people to go for their totems, but if they pose a critical threat to my strategy, then I will.
Rogue: No.  Doesn't matter anyway
Warrior: No.
Druid: Yes, but they have to break out of shapeshift in order to do so.  When they do that, I'll stun them, which they'll break out of with another shapeshift.  They'll notice the poison is still on them, so go back to caster form.  After that much form-dancing, they're usually dead.  Druids are a joke for me.
Warlock: No.  They're the worst to kite.  If I can't intercept them after a few seconds, I'll usually burn sprint or run to the healing hut.  I hate that strategy.  If they want me to chase them around aimlessly, they're foolish! =)
Priest: No.
Hunter: No.
Mage: No.
[/quote]

Sustained damage -- Sure, the first three attacks, and even then you're doing it on a boss, which is about, what, 600 damage total? Assuming it's non-crits. Other then the three abilities I named, we have two other damage dealing skills, backstab (only useable with daggers), and ambush (used once a fight, two if you really want to waste vanish).

Huh?  Regardless of your build, you're generally sitting behind the boss, out of range or line of sight for most of its damage abilities.  Dagger Rogues spam Backstab, Eviscerate and Feint.  Sword Rogues replace Backstab with Sinister Strike or Hemorrhage.  No, it's not about 600 damage.  The boss has 5 sunder armors on it, which is more effective than a 5 point expose armor.  On average (assuming a low chance to miss, enemy dodge/parry/block), white damage adds up to around 1000-3000, Sinister Strikes slightly more than that and then you add in Eviscerates every 10 seconds or so, which will hit anywhere from 500-2000.  A Rogue's damage is much more partitioned than a Warrior, who is generally relying on White attacks, Heroic Strikes when Rage permits and Execute when the time is proper.  Warriors are forced to limit their damage much more than a Rogue, because they do not have an ability to lower the threat they produce.  Rogues have Feint, which when used regularly, permits nearly non-stop spamming of the aforementioned abilities.

Vanish -- When I say it's broken, I mean this:

If you vanish, you can still be hit back out of it. This used to not happen. For boss incounters, I don't mean dropping combat, I mean dropping threat, a hunter can feign death, and all his threat is gone, if a rogue vanishes, his threat is still there. (This happened in 1.10, wasn't like that before.) As far as getting out of combat, I agree, they shouldn't be able to leave, but that's what the skill is used for, so technically it really isn't working.

Vanish doesn't drop threat?  Are you sure on that?  I hadn't heard that.  I will definitely believe it, though, since I don't see my raid leader telling Rogues to vanish when Vaelestraz casts Burning Adrenaline on the main tank any more.

Offline Furious

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2006, 09:21:27 pm »
You should split this thread, you two went off-topic in your battle of the egos.  This is a "Post Your Character" thread, not a dicuss your class thread. ;[
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Offline Screenor

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Re: The "Post Your Character" Thread
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2006, 12:33:02 am »
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There are a few more, but those two attend nearly every raid.  One of them has Akashandi

You lose me here, the reason being, Ashkahndi is a two handed sword, any fury warrior using a two hander is a complete dumbass, and it's no wonder they're getting out dpsed. If you're using a two hander you go arms for Mortal Strike, and two hander spec, not fury. The only thing in the fury tree for a twohander is Slam, a spell cast, that is a terrible skill, and not even comparable to MS.

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You've never seen a Rogue in top ten for PvE?
You misread my post, I said sword rogue.

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There are some classes that simply do well against other classes.  On the rare occasion I PvP on my Priest, Rogues constantly gank me.  Sure, I'm not Shadow specc'd, but I know a few Knight-Champion priests that are holy and discipline.
Most pvp guilds don't let their priests stay in shadowform during the BG. :P

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Paladin: Yes, but rarely need to worry about them.  They're not very good at kiting anyway... no ranged attack!
Shaman: Yes, they have at least two ways.  I always check to see if the blue totems are Poison Cleansing and gank them if they are.  Shamans rarely expect people to go for their totems, but if they pose a critical threat to my strategy, then I will.
Rogue: No.  Doesn't matter anyway
Warrior: No.
Druid: Yes, but they have to break out of shapeshift in order to do so.  When they do that, I'll stun them, which they'll break out of with another shapeshift.  They'll notice the poison is still on them, so go back to caster form.  After that much form-dancing, they're usually dead.  Druids are a joke for me.
Warlock: No.  They're the worst to kite.  If I can't intercept them after a few seconds, I'll usually burn sprint or run to the healing hut.  I hate that strategy.  If they want me to chase them around aimlessly, they're foolish! =)
Priest: No.
Hunter: No.
Mage: No.
A rogue has vanish, a druid should never have to leave bear form really anyway, but eh, and a warlock doesn't have to move, they just fear you away, same with priest.

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Vanish doesn't drop threat?  Are you sure on that?  I hadn't heard that.  I will definitely believe it, though, since I don't see my raid leader telling Rogues to vanish when Vaelestraz casts Burning Adrenaline on the main tank any more.

Yeah, confirmed bug by Blizzard, that they'll "get around" to fixing.