FINA-FUCKING-LLY!!!

[MyndFyre]

Rogue Talent Review

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Next in the ongoing talent review are the rogues, masters of stealth and assassination. Stay tuned for more details on what the rogue talent update will have in store for the sneaky damage dealers.

FINALLY!!!  Now that the mage has been redone three times and the priest twice, the only class that's been ignored since long before retail is getting some LOVE.

[Sidoh]

There were some more detailed review notes released in a blizzard post, but I'm too lazy to find them.  They were posted on my guild forums.  Anyway, it's looking pretty nice.  I've heard mixed opinions with it, though... not sure how I feel about it for sure yet, but I'm getting the feeling that it will be a pretty positive change for Rogues. :)

[Screenor]

The problem is, Myndfyre, that the talent review previews are terrible, sure, they fixed some of the major issues rogues were having, but we have to spec high into talent trees to get it. For instance:

Rapid Concealment has been merged with Camouflage, by combining these talents you not only get a great talent to start off the tree, but obviously it frees up a number of points to be spent elsewhere.

Hey, two talents that rogues will never use before MoD, and even though they're now in one talent, we're still not going to use them 90% of the time, they're more valuable to put somewhere else.

Improved Kidney Shot has been changed, and will instead increase the damage taken by the target while they are affected by Kidney Shot. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Kidney Shot.

Alright, so now we have to put points into a tier 5 talent, which unless you're seal fate and don't want to have points for something such as Imp BS, you'll put points in this peice of shit.

Improved Sprint has been changed, and will instead have a 50/100% chance to remove all movement impairing effects when you activate your Sprint ability. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Sprint.

Hey, thanks Blizz, now I can't be kited by every fucking class I play. But oh wait! I have to spec 13 points into the combat tree to get it! Worthless if I'm a dagger rogue.

Garrote, Rupture, and Eviscerate are being increased in damage. More details to come.

Then in a later post the GM tells us Rupture is not having its damage upped, Eviscerate you need to get a book to upgrade to the new rank, and it's not a lot more damage, plus it's still static and will not scale with gear. Garrote is getting a 50% damage boost. In other words, worthless.

I was excited when I first read their review, then I reread it and realized it was all things you had to spec for. I'll keep the talent trees we have now please.


Oh, and btw:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3273204292269014352&q=niar

Still working as intended.

[Blaze]

The mages arcane tree was nerfed to shit.  Our 31 point talent for it is a nerfed joke.  If I want to be able to have a real silence I must go into the fifth tier of it, wasting points on crappy things like 50% intellect goes to armor (So, 200 armor).  Sure our frost tree is good, but that's it.  I'm right now 0/6/45, which is sad.

Oh, and to make our class more "fun" they gave us a new rank of food, a quest to add another type of polymorph, and a boss to get a new type of polymorph.  We still make 10 water each time for just under 1k mana.. and now we have to go through live strat to get a new rank of food?  Fuck that.  We're still outdamaged by warlocks, our polymorph still heals the person, we still have the lowest health, and a CM on the WoW forums told us to re-roll warlocks..  WHA!?  ;-\

[Sidoh]

Hold on.  You're a dagger rogue and you don't have blade flurry?  I would think any dagger rouge would want that.  You run into a group, blade flurry, backstab, backstab, thistle tea, backstab, backstab.  I <3 Blade Flurry.

[MyndFyre]

@Sidoh: I spec'd combat for a while and did blade flurry, although I love sub/asn build as a dagger rogue.

I was excited when I first read their review, then I reread it and realized it was all things you had to spec for. I'll keep the talent trees we have now please.

Oh, shit, they're reviewing the specialization talents and you need to specialize to get benefits?  FUCK, what was I thinking?!?  I thought that rogues would just be ultimatedamage all the time!

[Screenor]

x86] link=topic=6554.msg79416#msg79416 date=1152392673]
@Sidoh: I spec'd combat for a while and did blade flurry, although I love sub/asn build as a dagger rogue.

I was excited when I first read their review, then I reread it and realized it was all things you had to spec for. I'll keep the talent trees we have now please.

Oh, shit, they're reviewing the specialization talents and you need to specialize to get benefits?  FUCK, what was I thinking?!?  I thought that rogues would just be ultimatedamage all the time!

The way they set up the talent trees so far completely destroys the effective ways most rogues spec, they're making Vanish finally remove Vanish/Mind Vision, well grats, this should have been done when the game first fucking came out, not two and a half years later. Rogues are getting fed the shithole of the chain. I'd gladly trade my rogue for a fury warrior, or a mage, or even a warlock. Most of the changes they made are just nifty little things that will never help outside of pvp. I rolled this class so I could deal damage, in my guilds raids the top damage dealers are the dps warriors, then the mages, and then our rogues. The only time rogues will always come out top in DPS charts is for Vael in BWL, and that's because we get unlimited energy.

With Naxx now out, every class is getting buffed, our damage still stays static other then BS/SS. You can't argue this because Eviscerate, our best finisher, and generally our only useful one will ALWAYS hit for the same damage, I was dueling people with dual wielded dirks (1 - 3 damage), and would be eviscerating for 1600 crit. I put on my Fang of the Faceless/Lobo and would still eviscerate crit for 1600. You're fucking kidding me if you honestly think we shouldn't get a buff. These attacks should function just as Backstab/Sinister Strike/Ambush. A certain amount of damage that's scaled by gear. I'll make you a video of me in WSG later to show you how things work.

Sidoh: Why would I have Blade Flurry? You realize Backstab is a 60 energy talent correct? I'm not going to spec so far into Combat so I can attack 20% faster for a few seconds. And a lot of the time I'm only fighting one person. My spec is a 21/8/22 combo. Linked here. When I post a video you'll see. When we get the free respec I'll spec for Blade Flurry just to please you, kk?

[Screenor]

The mages arcane tree was nerfed to shit.  Our 31 point talent for it is a nerfed joke.  If I want to be able to have a real silence I must go into the fifth tier of it, wasting points on crappy things like 50% intellect goes to armor (So, 200 armor).  Sure our frost tree is good, but that's it.  I'm right now 0/6/45, which is sad.

Oh, and to make our class more "fun" they gave us a new rank of food, a quest to add another type of polymorph, and a boss to get a new type of polymorph.  We still make 10 water each time for just under 1k mana.. and now we have to go through live strat to get a new rank of food?  Fuck that.  We're still outdamaged by warlocks, our polymorph still heals the person, we still have the lowest health, and a CM on the WoW forums told us to re-roll warlocks..  WHA!?  ;-\

I do agree mages have low amounts of health, and the quest for new food is amazingly stupid, but to be honest, I've been frostbolted for 3.5k so ugh...My sympothy is lost there. But yeah, warlocks are just plain gay, there is no class more overpowered.

I am currently leveling a mage right now on Altar of Storms (Horde), so I will be trying things out.

But still, as far as reviews go we're not getting the direct buffs we should have. Our abilities at the very least haven't even been said to be getting fixed.

Also, Myndfyre, we're a damage dealing class, it's all we can do, we don't have group buffs, we don't have the ability to tank, heal, dispell, or make anything that benefits anyone but ourselves. When we are no longer the masters of damage dealing we're no longer needed in raids. This I can prove, because I have a friend who came from a guild who is now doing Naxx, they're on the 7th boss in Naxx (they all quit their jobs/lives to be first to beat the instance), and they use very few rogues because their warriors by far out dps them.

Btw, check out this combat log:


Still working as intended.

[Joe]

I agree, rogue's need help. Back at level 45, death coil, drop DoT's, fear and nuke, watch the poor 49+ rogue drop.

[MyndFyre]

x86] link=topic=6554.msg79429#msg79429 date=1152400746]
I agree, rogue's need help. Back at level 45, death coil, drop DoT's, fear and nuke, watch the poor 49+ rogue drop.

Rogues shouldn't be able to kill every class every time.  At 56 I could own a 60 warrior or hunter with the right build.

I'm just glad we're getting some attention, one and a half years after it was released, not two and a half like Screenor would have you believe while he cries more.

[Joe]

Yes, but the game should be balanced enough that rogues don't get owned by warlocks several levels below them with no escape plan or chance of survival at all. =)

[Screenor]

x86] link=topic=6554.msg79443#msg79443 date=1152403870]

x86] link=topic=6554.msg79429#msg79429 date=1152400746]
I agree, rogue's need help. Back at level 45, death coil, drop DoT's, fear and nuke, watch the poor 49+ rogue drop.

Rogues shouldn't be able to kill every class every time.  At 56 I could own a 60 warrior or hunter with the right build.

I'm just glad we're getting some attention, one and a half years after it was released, not two and a half like Screenor would have you believe while he cries more.

Read the rogue forum, k? Then talk.

Also, how long ago was it when you were 56? Before patch 1.9 we owned.

[Blaze]

Yes, and I've been one shotted by a rogue, Screenor.  What's your point?  Every class with good gear can do damage.  Except for Pallies, they just suck.

[Sidoh]

The way they set up the talent trees so far completely destroys the effective ways most rogues spec, they're making Vanish finally remove Vanish/Mind Vision, well grats, this should have been done when the game first fucking came out, not two and a half years later. Rogues are getting fed the shithole of the chain. I'd gladly trade my rogue for a fury warrior, or a mage, or even a warlock. Most of the changes they made are just nifty little things that will never help outside of pvp. I rolled this class so I could deal damage, in my guilds raids the top damage dealers are the dps warriors, then the mages, and then our rogues. The only time rogues will always come out top in DPS charts is for Vael in BWL, and that's because we get unlimited energy.

Vanish finally removes Vanish?  I think you complain too much, personally.  I group with Fury Warriors, I PvP at my Rogue at level 60.  I'm getting none of the frustration that you are experiencing.  My suggestion: quit bitching and reroll.  By the way, you realize mages have unlimited mana for Vael too, right?

With Naxx now out, every class is getting buffed, our damage still stays static other then BS/SS. You can't argue this because Eviscerate, our best finisher, and generally our only useful one will ALWAYS hit for the same damage, I was dueling people with dual wielded dirks (1 - 3 damage), and would be eviscerating for 1600 crit. I put on my Fang of the Faceless/Lobo and would still eviscerate crit for 1600. You're fucking kidding me if you honestly think we shouldn't get a buff. These attacks should function just as Backstab/Sinister Strike/Ambush. A certain amount of damage that's scaled by gear. I'll make you a video of me in WSG later to show you how things work.

Backstab and Sinister Strike are the main damage abilities.  They're obviously determined by your weapon strength, so I don't understand why you're bitching.  Eviscerate is not a Rogue's best finishing move.  The appropriate finishing move is always dependant on the situation.  Sure, Eviscerate is probably the most commonly used one, but I don't really care that it does static damage.  The DPS I did to achieve whatever damage Eviscerate does was WAY higher (in the rare case that all sinister strikes were crits, anywhere from 2500 - 4500 damage with JUST sinister strikes.  this does not count white damage, which can hit for tons too).

Sidoh: Why would I have Blade Flurry? You realize Backstab is a 60 energy talent correct? I'm not going to spec so far into Combat so I can attack 20% faster for a few seconds. And a lot of the time I'm only fighting one person. My spec is a 21/8/22 combo. Linked here. When I post a video you'll see. When we get the free respec I'll spec for Blade Flurry just to please you, kk?

The only dagger rogue in my raid that pvp's regularly uses that strategy all of the time and says its the most viable thing he can do as a Rogue.  He says he's dropped 6 horde in less than 6 seconds.  You can backstab twice within a second (assuming the first backstab lands on a "tock" and not a "tick," as each "tick" 20 energy is restored).

Yes, and I've been one shotted by a rogue, Screenor.  What's your point?  Every class with good gear can do damage.  Except for Pallies, they just suck.

Rogues are an extremely viable class.  In my opinion, screenor just cries too much. :P

Also, Blaze, you're wrong about Paladins not being able to DPS. :P

x86] link=topic=6554.msg79429#msg79429 date=1152400746]
I agree, rogue's need help. Back at level 45, death coil, drop DoT's, fear and nuke, watch the poor 49+ rogue drop.

Get to 60 and duel my Rogue.  Bet I kick your ass. :P

When I was in the 40's bracket, Warlocks were my easiest target.  Sure, there were times I had to use sprint to catch up to one who got fear/death coil off on me, but I could almost always take a Warlock 1v1.  You simply face really sucky rogues. :P

x86] link=topic=6554.msg79450#msg79450 date=1152406888]
Yes, but the game should be balanced enough that rogues don't get owned by warlocks several levels below them with no escape plan or chance of survival at all. =)

Again: face a half way decent Rogue and then you will earn the priviledge to speak.

[Blaze]

Also, Blaze, you're wrong about Paladins not being able to DPS. :P

That doesn't mean they don't suck.  :)