An article critical of the higher education system

[CrAz3D]

http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i34/34b01701.htm?fark

I know _far_ too many people that would've been better off skipping college, dropping out of college or forgetting college all together (maybe even senior year of high school).  I am a big proponent of vocational training.  There is nothing wrong with being an electrician, and you can make damn good money at it.  My folks' neighbor is an electrician making great money with no college education.  A dude running for the US House of Reps in my district dropped out of school at 17 to work the oil fields; he is now worth millions and is very involved in his community.

I would also support an evaluation of the system.  USNews (or whatever that is) is not the best source for info, I like the tire idea.  Release all of the information, and then the people can decide.

Further, if there were less people clogging up the university system, we could eliminate much of the unnecessary costs and refocus on educating people that will gain from college.  Somewhere along the line we became disoriented in thinking that college helps people, when the reality is that people use college as an aid to help themselves.  Not everyone should go to college. 

For my professional school I have to have an undergraduate degree.  There is no reason behind it other than duping me out of money.  I can understand having a few classes in English, maybe philosophy, but not what I've done thus far.  Further, most of what I've learned has been self-taught, picked up online or while actually in the workplace. 

[Maddi]

Yeah, trades can make a damn good amount of money.
I've known many people that are in trades, eventually making their own company and becoming quite successful.
Many people think it's a job for the... inferior and I'm not sure why.

[iago]

It's not all about the money. Just sayin'.

[Sidoh]

It's not all about the money. Just sayin'.

I totally agree.  That said, I'm also in agreement with what Crazed is saying.  College definitely isnt' for everyone.

[dark_drake]

For my professional school I have to have an undergraduate degree.  There is no reason behind it other than duping me out of money.  I can understand having a few classes in English, maybe philosophy, but not what I've done thus far.  Further, most of what I've learned has been self-taught, picked up online or while actually in the workplace. 

I agree with most of your post, but I just wanted to reinforce this point. I have never understood why medical school and law school require an undergraduate degree. Yes, one would pick up a few important tidbits here and there as an undergraduate, but nothing that increasing the curriculum at law/med school by a year or so could not remedy.

[iago]

For my professional school I have to have an undergraduate degree.  There is no reason behind it other than duping me out of money.  I can understand having a few classes in English, maybe philosophy, but not what I've done thus far.  Further, most of what I've learned has been self-taught, picked up online or while actually in the workplace. 

I agree with most of your post, but I just wanted to reinforce this point. I have never understood why medical school and law school require an undergraduate degree. Yes, one would pick up a few important tidbits here and there as an undergraduate, but nothing that increasing the curriculum at law/med school by a year or so could not remedy.

Perhaps because it's a way to pre-screen people, to prove that they have a commitment?

Or maybe it's just a way to take more of their money. :)

[CrAz3D]

It's not all about the money. Just sayin'.

True, but most people dont gain much of anything from pure 'enlightenment.'  Those people are definitely the exception to the rule.

I totally agree.  That said, I'm also in agreement with what Crazed is saying.  College definitely isnt' for everyone.

Word.  Too many people push college like a person is some sort of failure if you don't attend/you drop out/etc.

For my professional school I have to have an undergraduate degree.  There is no reason behind it other than duping me out of money.  I can understand having a few classes in English, maybe philosophy, but not what I've done thus far.  Further, most of what I've learned has been self-taught, picked up online or while actually in the workplace. 

I agree with most of your post, but I just wanted to reinforce this point. I have never understood why medical school and law school require an undergraduate degree. Yes, one would pick up a few important tidbits here and there as an undergraduate, but nothing that increasing the curriculum at law/med school by a year or so could not remedy.

Perhaps because it's a way to pre-screen people, to prove that they have a commitment?

Or maybe it's just a way to take more of their money. :)

I lean the latter.  They already pre-screen for commitment and competence.

[BigAznDaddy]

yup i agree with you crazed i think i am going to drop college after i get my associates. and i am starting border patrol training this summer

[CrAz3D]

Is your associates going to help you?  If not, fuck it.

[Towelie]

Education isn't all about going to class to learn about something for your job. It teaches you certain ways to think, which can prove to be invaluable in ANY field you want to work in.

[Lead]

Education isn't all about going to class to learn about something for your job. It teaches you certain ways to think, which can prove to be invaluable in ANY field you want to work in.

I'm going to have to agree 100% with Towelie. While crazed is right in a sense that there are jobs you can make a good living off of without going to college, how many of those jobs are there to spare? With a good portion of jobs being sent from the state to overseas, that eliminates a good amount of blue collar jobs that are left. Not saying that learning a trade skill such as carpentry of plumbing is bad, but, as far as I see now, a great deal of people are not going to college and going into some sort of trade, which will create an abundance of people with some sort of trade skill who do not have a job, whilst you can go to college and learn another trade, get a degree, and live a more comfortable lifestyle than knucklegrinding for 30 years of your life.

[BigAznDaddy]

Is your associates going to help you?  If not, fuck it.

it will get me into the higher pay range.
if not i would start at G5 but with it i will start at G7 pay.

[Nex (EcH)]

Education isn't all about going to class to learn about something for your job. It teaches you certain ways to think, which can prove to be invaluable in ANY field you want to work in.

I'm going to have to agree 100% with Towelie. While crazed is right in a sense that there are jobs you can make a good living off of without going to college, how many of those jobs are there to spare? With a good portion of jobs being sent from the state to overseas, that eliminates a good amount of blue collar jobs that are left. Not saying that learning a trade skill such as carpentry of plumbing is bad, but, as far as I see now, a great deal of people are not going to college and going into some sort of trade, which will create an abundance of people with some sort of trade skill who do not have a job, whilst you can go to college and learn another trade, get a degree, and live a more comfortable lifestyle than knucklegrinding for 30 years of your life.

While it is true that many blue collar jobs are going overseas, there are a great many that pretty much physically have to be done here, from plumbers to auto-mechanics to all sorts of other such trades.  Now, you are right insofar as if most people were to shift that way, rather than going to college going basically directly into a trade, there would be problems with the market being flooded with those skills and labor, but there is no risk of that happening at this point. 

In fact, the pendulum is way out the other way--the colleges are flooded, and a great many of the people there are most likely not going to get much of anything useful out of it, while the trades are suffering in quality and growing overly expensive out of lack of people.  In that sense CrAz3d's point is absolutely valid: many people who are going to college should instead go vocational.  It would not be valid to say that most people who are going to college should go vocational, which would take the pendulum in the opposite direction, being similarly destructive.  There needs to be a balance. 

I personally think that there should be more vocational training available in the public schools.  There was an auto-mechanics class in high school in my parent's day, but when I went there (I actually went to the same school as my mother) it was gone.  The facilities remained, but the class was not there.  The point of public education, in many respects, seems to be to get you ready to go to college.  They should offer a lot of options for people who don't want to go in that direction--people who remain crucial to our economy. 

But I really shouldn't get started on the education system as a whole. 

[CrAz3D]

Education isn't all about going to class to learn about something for your job. It teaches you certain ways to think, which can prove to be invaluable in ANY field you want to work in.

Critical thinking skills aren't always (usually ever) relevant in most jobs today, not unless you're in a job where you need an actual education.  Also, you can build those skills on your own rather easily.

Education isn't all about going to class to learn about something for your job. It teaches you certain ways to think, which can prove to be invaluable in ANY field you want to work in.

I'm going to have to agree 100% with Towelie. While crazed is right in a sense that there are jobs you can make a good living off of without going to college, how many of those jobs are there to spare? With a good portion of jobs being sent from the state to overseas, that eliminates a good amount of blue collar jobs that are left. Not saying that learning a trade skill such as carpentry of plumbing is bad, but, as far as I see now, a great deal of people are not going to college and going into some sort of trade, which will create an abundance of people with some sort of trade skill who do not have a job, whilst you can go to college and learn another trade, get a degree, and live a more comfortable lifestyle than knucklegrinding for 30 years of your life.

Did you read the article?  Lots of people with degrees can't get any job that requires a degree.  They wasted 4+ years and thousands of dollars just to end up doing something they could've started years ago.

Is your associates going to help you?  If not, fuck it.

it will get me into the higher pay range.
if not i would start at G5 but with it i will start at G7 pay.

OK, cool.

[Towelie]

Education isn't all about going to class to learn about something for your job. It teaches you certain ways to think, which can prove to be invaluable in ANY field you want to work in.

Critical thinking skills aren't always (usually ever) relevant in most jobs today, not unless you're in a job where you need an actual education.  Also, you can build those skills on your own rather easily.

"Critical thinking" isn't exactly what I was talking about. Either way, it is definitely relevant in any job field. You build different thought processes while gaining an education that you can't get anywhere else, so you can't really create those on your own.