Are vegan restaurants actually vegan?

[Rule]

My friend always says he'll eat anything that can't take. That includes babies and retarded people. He's ok with that. *shrug*

I don't believe him.

But that could be part of a consistent belief system.  Not one I endorse, but it may be consistent.

[Rule]

The 'grossness' here is illogical.  It is a mental artifact.  If we were to govern our decisions based on 'grossness', we could easily kill ourselves with antibiotics, etc.  What makes something gross?

I think something is gross when it comes from the inside of another animal, and is involved in their reproductive process. That seems logical enough to me. Milk and eggs both fit that criteria.

I don't consider germs and such gross, in general. They're pretty natural.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't understand how it is logical. 

I'd like to milk this. :P

I don't think this grossness is logical.  Milk isn't directly involved in a reproductive process: reproduction can take place without milk.  It has a correlation, but given that we evolved to reproduce, many things do.  Besides that, what's gross about something being involved in a reproductive process?  Or something coming from the inside of another animal?

[Armin]

Since when is emotion logical? Are you advocating no emotion?

[iago]

My friend always says he'll eat anything that can't take. That includes babies and retarded people. He's ok with that. *shrug*

I don't believe him.

But that could be part of a consistent belief system.  Not one I endorse, but it may be consistent.

It's more of a joke than anything. But at least he has well defined boundaries! :P

I'd like to milk this. :P

Pun intended?

I don't think this grossness is logical.  Milk isn't directly involved in a reproductive process: reproduction can take place without milk.  It has a correlation, but given that we evolved to reproduce, many things do.  Besides that, what's gross about something being involved in a reproductive process?  Or something coming from the inside of another animal?

Well, milk is generated as a step in the reproductive process. The fact that it's post-birth doesn't make it any different, in my mind.

In any case, it isn't just reproductive, that's really just an example of it. I also avoid, when possible, eating other kinds of things that animals produce, like honey.

Grossness is only part of the reason, and you're right that it's somewhat arbitrary. But it works! :)

I still think the better reason is that animals shouldn't be treated as property/slaves. Animals work to produce something, and we take it and consume/sell it without giving the animal a share of the profits, so to speak. Animals never get to retire, spend time with their families, take a day off, go on vacation, etc. I sort of brought that up earlier, I don't really remember how much I said so sorry if I'm repeating myself. :)

[while1]

Intelligence.  And I'm speaking in terms of a species as a whole.  Go on and choose the outliers and sure, it's not 100%, some mentally handicap may be less intelligence than a bovine.

You don't see cows, chickens, etc. driving around, learning how to read, write, do math, etc.  Our capacity to learn and relate experiences with knowledge makes us superior.

Many animals -- wolves, dolphins, elephants, etc. -- are in some ways much smarter on the whole than humans. 

But that debate aside, would you eat mentally retarded humans?  Do you think you have the privilege to eat mentally retarded humans?  And should those humans who are significantly more intelligent than you, have the privilege to kill you?

Although I would object adamantly, I wouldn't blame aliens if they came and wanted to harvest our bodies or obliterate us and conquer our planet.  Survival of the fittest.  If they have the means of our destruction and we cannot defend ourselves, then so be it.

So you couldn't blame Hitler and the Nazis for killing Jews?  Survival of the fittest

The mentally retarded, Jews,  etc. are all humans and the same species...  Back to my original post, I said I feel no problem eating other species of lesser intelligence.  I have a problem with eating others of my own species no matter whether they drew the short end of the stick at birth or not because they are still human.

[Rule]

I'd like to milk this. :P

Pun intended?

ya  ;)

I don't think this grossness is logical.  Milk isn't directly involved in a reproductive process: reproduction can take place without milk.  It has a correlation, but given that we evolved to reproduce, many things do.  Besides that, what's gross about something being involved in a reproductive process?  Or something coming from the inside of another animal?

Well, milk is generated as a step in the reproductive process. The fact that it's post-birth doesn't make it any different, in my mind.

In any case, it isn't just reproductive, that's really just an example of it. I also avoid, when possible, eating other kinds of things that animals produce, like honey.

Grossness is only part of the reason, and you're right that it's somewhat arbitrary. But it works! :)

"Gross" in this context mostly means it makes us feel uncomfortable... but often for reasons like social stigma, or even personal eccentricity, which have no good basis.  I guess my point is that grossness can't be defended logically as a decision making factor, unless we do something like take "gross" to mean unhealthy.    

I still think the better reason is that animals shouldn't be treated as property/slaves. Animals work to produce something, and we take it and consume/sell it without giving the animal a share of the profits, so to speak. Animals never get to retire, spend time with their families, take a day off, go on vacation, etc. I sort of brought that up earlier, I don't really remember how much I said so sorry if I'm repeating myself. :)

That makes sense.  

[Rule]

The mentally retarded, Jews,  etc. are all humans and the same species.  Back to my original post, I said I feel no problem eating other species of lesser intelligence.  I have a problem with eating others of my own species no matter whether they drew the short end of the stick at birth or not because they are still human.  Now if they were a retarded monkey, I'd eat them.

You are setting a double standard.  You say humans are more intelligent, therefore they are superior.  But then you throw this out the window when we find a particular animal that is more intelligent than a particular human.  By your reasoning, that animal should be superior.

The "because they are still human" is key to your response.  This is not about intelligence.

[Rule]

Since when is emotion logical? Are you advocating no emotion?

I think emotion can be logical. 

[deadly7]

The "because they are still human" is key to your response.  This is not about intelligence.

I'd wager it's moreso because of the fact that it's socially acceptable to eat animals of any breed (if not in our culture than other world cultures for sure) than any sort of intelligence pattern. Eating humans reminds me of the great Charlie and the Chocolate Factory quote: Willy Wonka: Of course you can! Everything in this room is eatable, even *I'm* eatable! But that is called "cannibalism," my dear children, and is in fact frowned upon in most societies.

[while1]

The mentally retarded, Jews,  etc. are all humans and the same species.  Back to my original post, I said I feel no problem eating other species of lesser intelligence.  I have a problem with eating others of my own species no matter whether they drew the short end of the stick at birth or not because they are still human.  Now if they were a retarded monkey, I'd eat them.

You are setting a double standard.  You say humans are more intelligent, therefore they are superior.  But then you throw this out the window when we find a particular animal that is more intelligent than a particular human.  By your reasoning, that animal should be superior.

The "because they are still human" is key to your response.  This is not about intelligence.

If another member of a species is more intelligent than a particular human, I have no problem with it killing and eating that human if it's more intelligent.  Survival of the fittest.  I personally won't kill another human because that human is less intelligent than myself, however I will not hesitate to use my intellectual advantage over the other human to my own benefit.  I'd rather not go to jail.  In a world without consequences and social restrictions, I'd probably think differently and consider eradicating humans that don't contribute to society.  i.e. homeless.  Unfortunately, unlike other species, humans have this thing called morals, laws, etc.

[Rule]

The mentally retarded, Jews,  etc. are all humans and the same species.  Back to my original post, I said I feel no problem eating other species of lesser intelligence.  I have a problem with eating others of my own species no matter whether they drew the short end of the stick at birth or not because they are still human.  Now if they were a retarded monkey, I'd eat them.

You are setting a double standard.  You say humans are more intelligent, therefore they are superior.  But then you throw this out the window when we find a particular animal that is more intelligent than a particular human.  By your reasoning, that animal should be superior.

The "because they are still human" is key to your response.  This is not about intelligence.

If another member of a species is more intelligent than a particular human, I have no problem with it killing and eating that human if it's more intelligent.

Okay. Out of curiosity, what if it's just able to kill the human for whatever reason? For example, there is a fight between the two, and it wins.

I personally won't kill another human because that human is less intelligent than myself, however I will not hesitate to use my intellectual advantage over the other human to my own benefit.  I'd rather not go to jail.  In a world without consequences and social restrictions, I'd probably think differently and consider eradicating humans that don't contribute to society.  i.e. homeless.  Unfortunately, unlike other species, humans have this thing called morals, laws, etc.

I wouldn't say that other animals don't have morals.  It depends what you mean by that.  But for example, a wolf would not kill another member of its own pack, and not because it couldn't. 

You wouldn't kill a human less intelligent than you because of the social consequences --- but do you think it gives you the right to kill him?  In other words, would you be justified in doing so.  Or more generally, if someone decided to kill a retarded person on the street, and then eat it, would he be justified, because of his superior intelligence?

[Rule]

The "because they are still human" is key to your response.  This is not about intelligence.

I'd wager it's moreso because of the fact that it's socially acceptable to eat animals of any breed (if not in our culture than other world cultures for sure) than any sort of intelligence pattern. Eating humans reminds me of the great Charlie and the Chocolate Factory quote: Willy Wonka: Of course you can! Everything in this room is eatable, even *I'm* eatable! But that is called "cannibalism," my dear children, and is in fact frowned upon in most societies.

Yes.  It would be very easy for us all to be conditioned to think that meat eating (at all) is horrible.  Who knows? In a hundred years that could be the case.

[while1]

The mentally retarded, Jews,  etc. are all humans and the same species.  Back to my original post, I said I feel no problem eating other species of lesser intelligence.  I have a problem with eating others of my own species no matter whether they drew the short end of the stick at birth or not because they are still human.  Now if they were a retarded monkey, I'd eat them.

You are setting a double standard.  You say humans are more intelligent, therefore they are superior.  But then you throw this out the window when we find a particular animal that is more intelligent than a particular human.  By your reasoning, that animal should be superior.

The "because they are still human" is key to your response.  This is not about intelligence.

If another member of a species is more intelligent than a particular human, I have no problem with it killing and eating that human if it's more intelligent.

Okay. Out of curiosity, what if it's just able to kill the human for whatever reason? For example, there is a fight between the two, and it wins.

I personally won't kill another human because that human is less intelligent than myself, however I will not hesitate to use my intellectual advantage over the other human to my own benefit.  I'd rather not go to jail.  In a world without consequences and social restrictions, I'd probably think differently and consider eradicating humans that don't contribute to society.  i.e. homeless.  Unfortunately, unlike other species, humans have this thing called morals, laws, etc.

I wouldn't say that other animals don't have morals.  It depends what you mean by that.  But for example, a wolf would not kill another member of its own pack, and not because it couldn't. 

You wouldn't kill a human less intelligent than you because of the social consequences --- but do you think it gives you the right to kill him?  In other words, would you be justified in doing so.  Or more generally, if someone decided to kill a retarded person on the street, and then eat it, would he be justified, because of his superior intelligence?

If he was hungry and was the most efficient source of food energy, yes he has the right.  Assuming no social consequences.  But really this most likely wouldn't be the most efficient source of food unless he was out in the wilderness or something.  i.e. he'd have to kill the retard and prepare the meat to eat/cook... could eat it raw but, ewwww.

Really, I act ethically and morally because it's what society expects of me.  Not because of some inherent instinctual programming I abide by, but under a code of conduct and set of rules I was raised to follow since birth.  If the existence of such environmental and parental guides did not exist for me, I most likely would not hesitate to kill for what I want.  Rape when I feel lust.  Steal to get what I need. Whatever.  I believe at the core of human nature, we are beasts.  It is our intellectual superiority that gives us the ability to suppress our instincts more than any other species.

[Hitmen]

This thread is awesome

[Armin]

Really, I act ethically and morally because it's what society expects of me.

Hi, Billy May's here! Have you ever pondered the taste of human flesh, yet never follow through because society expects you to follow their ethical and moral code? Well I have the perfect product for you! Hufu! Tofu, textured and flavored like human flesh, without the societal repercussions!