The Fruit of the Vine (Poetry)

[rabbit]

That doesn't change the fact that they still believe that everyone else is following false prophets and therefore are going to hell.

[Towelie]

That doesn't change the fact that they still believe that everyone else is following false prophets and therefore are going to hell.

I wasn't arguing that. All that I was arguing is that saying "What if you worshiped Allah instead of God?" is like saying "Why wouldn't you believe in Jesus instead of Jesus?" (the second one being pronounced hey-zeus ;P). Not that the religions are theologically the same, or believe that both religions are the right one.

[Towelie]

According to Francis Edwards Peters, "The Qur'an insists, Muslims believe, and historians affirm that Muhammad and his followers worship the same God as the Jews (29:46). The Quran's Allah is the same Creator God who covenanted with Abraham".

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah)
The fucking Qur'an states that they worship the same god. Need any more proof? :P

Just to give further evidence to this, here is a quote from that verse, translated into english of course:

And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

source: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/29.htm

[Sidoh]

You're looking at their specific theologies, damn it. Origins DO matter in what I am pointing out.

According to Francis Edwards Peters, "The Qur'an insists, Muslims believe, and historians affirm that Muhammad and his followers worship the same God as the Jews (29:46). The Quran's Allah is the same Creator God who covenanted with Abraham".

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah)

The fucking Qur'an states that they worship the same god. Need any more proof? :P

No, they don't.  The gods I'm referring to are entirely distinct descriptions of a being, and it doesn't matter if they started from the same description.  Think of evolution.  Maybe they started out with identical descriptions of a being, but somewhere along the line, things diverged.  Islam says Allah does this and that (for example, drinking camel piss is "cleansing"), and Yahweh says he has a son, which is also himself.

You'll have to understand that I'm not coming from a theological perspective.  I'm an atheist, and I'm going to treat the deities of religions as if they don't exist.  As such, the origins of said deities are completely irrelevant.  You apparently missed my point.  I don't think it was particularly subtle, but maybe it was, so I'll try to be more clear.

(1) I posit that if a Christian were to be taken back in time, and raised in an environment where the prominent religion was Islam instead of Christianity, they would be Muslim instead of Christian.
(2) Worshiping a god referred to as "Allah" signifies Islam.
(3) Worshiping a god referred to as "Yahweh" signifies Christianity.
(4) Most people in areas where Islam is the prominent religion worship a god referred to as "Allah".
(5) Therefore, people in areas where the most commonly worshiped god is referred to as "Allah" are Muslims.
(6) Islam is an entirely distinct religion from Christianity, and Christians believe that Muslims are gravely wrong about their religious views and visa-versa.

I could continue, but I'm hoping you get the idea now.

[Towelie]

No, they don't.  The gods I'm referring to are entirely distinct descriptions of a being, and it doesn't matter if they started from the same description.  Think of evolution.  Maybe they started out with identical descriptions of a being, but somewhere along the line, things diverged.  Islam says Allah does this and that (for example, drinking camel piss is "cleansing"), and Yahweh says he has a son, which is also himself.

Theological view. They think that drinking camel piss is "cleansing". This has nothing to do with the IDENTITY of the god. Christianity says he has a son.... Hey! Another THEOLOGICAL difference! Same identity of a god, different prophets! The god they believe in is the same, they go about worshiping him and practicing the religion in different ways.

You'll have to understand that I'm not coming from a theological perspective.  I'm an atheist, and I'm going to treat the deities of religions as if they don't exist.  As such, the origins of said deities are completely irrelevant.  You apparently missed my point.  I don't think it was particularly subtle, but maybe it was, so I'll try to be more clear.

You are not, but we aren't talking about your beliefs. It doesn't matter how you treat it, you are describing a god based on the practices of a religion. This is irrelevant to the god's identity.

(1) I posit that if a Christian were to be taken back in time, and raised in an environment where the prominent religion was Islam instead of Christianity, they would be Muslim instead of Christian.

I agree with this. But this has nothing to do with whether or not they are the same god, just showing that you would worship this god in a different way.

(2) Worshiping a god referred to as "Allah" signifies Islam.
(3) Worshiping a god referred to as "Yahweh" signifies Christianity.
(4) Most people in areas where Islam is the prominent religion worship a god referred to as "Allah".
(5) Therefore, people in areas where the most commonly worshiped god is referred to as "Allah" are Muslims.

No. Wrong. 100% wrong.
Worshiping a god referred to "Allah" does not signify Islam. If you speak Arabic and you are a christian, you refer to your god as "Allah". People who speak English, and practice Islam refer to their god as "Allah", for they believe that Arabic is the language that god speaks (as , and therefore they pray and read scripture in Arabic.
Yahweh is the word for god in Hebrew, found in the Torah, so it would signify Judaism over Christianity. And if you believe it signifies Christianity too, you are proving my point.

(6) Islam is an entirely distinct religion from Christianity, and Christians believe that Muslims are gravely wrong about their religious views and visa-versa.

Like I said, they believe they are wrong about their religious views by the way they worship the god, which is a theological approach. Therefore, this has nothing to do with my point.


Read my quote from the Qur'an, you are completely missing what I'm trying to say.

[Sidoh]

Holy shit.  This is pathetic.

Zach, I don't know how else to say it.  I'm don't care about theology, and I don't care if they're the same god by some definition you've arbitrarily chosen.  From an ontological point of view, the fact that the god described in Islam has different characterizations than the god in Christianity means that they're different gods for all purposes that I intend.

Theological view. They think that drinking camel piss is "cleansing". This has nothing to do with the IDENTITY of the god. Christianity says he has a son.... Hey! Another THEOLOGICAL difference! Same identity of a god, different prophets! The god they believe in is the same, they go about worshiping him and practicing the religion in different ways.

I don't care about the theology.  It's irrelevant.  Since you seem to be missing the point, it's irrelevant.

The point that I'm highlighting is that the religions are distinct, and members of each believe that the opposite is wrong, and will suffer eternal punishment because they are wrong.  You seem to be missing this.  Even if what you're saying has merit (I don't think it does, but I don't care enough to continue this discussion much longer), it's irrelevant to the argument I was making.

Your response was derailing, pedantic, and thoughtless.

You are not, but we aren't talking about your beliefs. It doesn't matter how you treat it, you are describing a god based on the practices of a religion. This is irrelevant to the god's identity.

Yes, we are.  We're talking about the argument I was making.  You're moving away from that.

... just showing that you would worship this god in a different way.

And that the religion you practice is distinct and mutually exclusive with Christianity.  That's the point I'm making.

Worshiping a god referred to "Allah" does not signify Islam. If you speak Arabic and you are a christian, you refer to your god as "Allah". People who speak English, and practice Islam refer to their god as "Allah", for they believe that Arabic is the language that god speaks (as , and therefore they pray and read scripture in Arabic.
Yahweh is the word for god in Hebrew, found in the Torah, so it would signify Judaism over Christianity. And if you believe it signifies Christianity too, you are proving my point.

Maybe that's true, and that'd be my mistake, but it still doesn't matter.

If I tell you that I know someone that worships Allah, would you assume that this statement was entirely ambiguous, or would you assume that the person I'm referring to is a Muslim?  If it's the former, then I think you're incredibly pedantic.  You're like the annoying prick in the room that makes irrelevant corrections when someone is in the middle of contributing a thoughtful comment to a discussion.

[Joe]

God is Allah. Allah is God. They are the same god. Islam is based off of Christianity, which is based off of Judaism. They are all founded on the same god.

Fixed.

EDIT -
If I remember correctly, the founder of Judaism was the brother of the founder of Islam. They got in a fight about something, and now Israel and Palestine are still fighting about it. But it's irrelevant, Towelie's point stands. The deity referenced in the Koran, Torah, and Bible, and all the names given to him (Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc) are all referring to the same being.

[Sidoh]

God is Allah. Allah is God. They are the same god. Islam is based off of Christianity, which is based off of Judaism. They are all founded on the same god.

Fixed.

EDIT -
If I remember correctly, the founder of Judaism was the brother of the founder of Islam. They got in a fight about something, and now Israel and Palestine are still fighting about it. But it's irrelevant, Towelie's point stands. The deity referenced in the Koran, Torah, and Bible, and all the names given to him (Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc) are all referring to the same being.

We had an ontological debate on IM earlier today, and you're not giving this enough thought to make a conclusion.

Also, Towelie's point is still irrelevant.  Did you read any of my responses?

[Towelie]

Also, Towelie's point is still irrelevant.  Did you read any of my responses?

Bitch please. My point is 100% relevant! Just not to what you were trying to say initially (which I actually pointed out). lol.


Either way, I'm still waiting for tuberload to respond to me:

How do you know that what you feel, or what you perceive as being God, isn't just something that your mind created, since the mind is powerful enough to do this, in order to cope with your struggles? You needed someone to love, and to turn to, and since you apparently didn't have any person to go to, isn't it entirely possible that your mind created this sense of God, which, in your situation, you had no problem giving yourself up to?

[Tuberload]

For the record I do not believe Allah is the God that I worship. Islam is a fatherless religion, and the heart of Christianity is that we have a Father in heaven that sent His son into the earth in fulfillment of covenant promises He had made to Jewish patriarchs. This man Jesus was the promised Messiah of the Jews and they crucified him in there ignorance. God then raised him back to life fulfilling His promises to King David that a son out of his loins would sit on his throne for eternity. Now because of Jesus' resurrection he has been made both the Lord of heaven and earth, and the Christ who will baptize all who will repent, i.e. turn from there current mind and way of living also known as sin, and profess their allegiance to Jesus as Lord. It is this allegiance to Jesus as Lord alone, coupled with a commitment to be led and empowered by the Holy Spirit into what we believe to be absolute truth thus producing drastic changes in heart and mind, which identifies a Christian who is being saved. Receiving the Holy Spirit through our allegiance to Christ grants us adoption as sons and daughters in the family of God in which God Himself is the Father. Allah has no sons, Yahweh does. It is a fundamental difference distinguishing the two religions.

Judaism came out of a continuation of Abraham's family line in the promised son Isaac through whom God chose to fulfill His covenant made to Abraham. Ishmael, the source of Islam, was a product of Abraham trying to fulfill the covenant made to him by God through his own means sleeping with a servant of his wife. While they have historical ties, and this is the last I will debate of this, they do not today share the same God.

I have stated why I believe Yahweh and His son Jesus Christ are the source of my experience, as well as the reasons as to why I am absolutely convinced it is not a product of my own mind here. I am willing to discuss things along the lines of that thread as they arise, but I am not going to continue reiterating myself.

[Sidoh]

I think you feel like you're reiterating because you aren't thoughtfully considering the questions you're being asked.

I'll try to relate it to the reasons you believe in Yahweh: do you think that if you grew up in Iran, you'd still have had an experience that lead you to Christianity?  How do you explain regional differences in religion?  This seems to me to be compelling evidence that these sorts of experiences are dependent on what religion is dominant in the region they're had, and that they're probably not associated with any sort of supernatural entity.

Why does God love people in Iran less than he loves the people in America?

[Tuberload]

I think you feel like you're reiterating because you aren't thoughtfully considering the questions you're being asked.

I'll try to relate it to the reasons you believe in Yahweh: do you think that if you grew up in Iran, you'd still have had an experience that lead you to Christianity?  How do you explain regional differences in religion?  This seems to me to be compelling evidence that these sorts of experiences are dependent on what religion is dominant in the region they're had, and that they're probably not associated with any sort of supernatural entity.

Why does God love people in Iran less than he loves the people in America?

And this demonstrates an ignorance of supernatural Christian evangelism/conversion taking place in Muslim countries. The underground Christian movement is strongest in Iran, although it is comparable to that of China so to say which is stronger would be hard. Most of these Muslims who are converting over to Christianity testify that the reason was either a dream or a vision of a man in a white robe who claimed to be Jesus Christ the Son of God and that he was calling them into His kingdom or that they experience some sort of creative miracle or healing in there body being prayed for in the name of Jesus Christ. Most of this is taking place independent of western Christianity and some of it separate from any Christian missionary works altogether, i.e. the claimed dreams and visions.

Sidoh a thoughtful reading of the material I have posted would draw ample conclusion of why I believe the vast majority of your arguments are false, as well as the reasoning of why I am not going to go round and round with you or anyone else on the matters. Are you willing to get over yourself? Because I will tell you that I am sprinting in the direction of getting over myself and my need to be right in the eyes of others. Write me of as whatever you like, but these long drawn out arguments are unfruitful and a waste of my time. Like I have said time and time again I am interested in my experience with God, and whatever experience God may grant another.

[MyndFyre]

Why does God love people in Iran less than he loves the people in America?

Based on... that he isn't compelling people to follow him?

I'm trying to determine how you're quantifying God's love.

[Tuberload]

I appreciate your response here.  While I'm rather convinced God isn't going to do anything to do something to convince me he exists (probably because he doesn't exist), I appreciate that you recognize you don't have any objective, non-personal reason to believe in God (else, you'd tell me, right? :)).

Still along the lines of thoughtfulness, you have made clear your position that God and His existence can not be proven nor as you have stated can it be disproved. It is not my desire hear to argue this claim, rather I ask that you stick with your original arguments for the remainder of our conversations. Now if He cannot be disproved I fail to understand how you can here begin to lean in one direction...is there some sort of faith at work here? Faith that he probably does not exist and therefore you lean in a direction to which you have stated there cannot be any objective proof? A direction to which you seem to have stated that you will neither agree nor disagree rather that you'd just walk in a way that is natural to you...

[Sidoh]

And this demonstrates an ignorance of supernatural Christian evangelism/conversion taking place in Muslim countries. The underground Christian movement is strongest in Iran, although it is comparable to that of China so to say which is stronger would be hard. Most of these Muslims who are converting over to Christianity testify that the reason was either a dream or a vision of a man in a white robe who claimed to be Jesus Christ the Son of God and that he was calling them into His kingdom or that they experience some sort of creative miracle or healing in there body being prayed for in the name of Jesus Christ. Most of this is taking place independent of western Christianity and some of it separate from any Christian missionary works altogether, i.e. the claimed dreams and visions.

I was not aware of such a movement, but I'm still unconvinced it matters.  The number of Christians per capita in countries like Iran are seem to be attributable to probability.  2% of the religious population in Iran is something other than Islam, and I'm not sure what part of that is Christian.  The fact remains: almost every person in Iran dies without accepting Jesus Christ.  Doesn't this mean they'll go to hell?

What you say about the dream is interesting, and I'd be interested to see a source.

Sidoh a thoughtful reading of the material I have posted would draw ample conclusion of why I believe the vast majority of your arguments are false, as well as the reasoning of why I am not going to go round and round with you or anyone else on the matters. Are you willing to get over yourself? Because I will tell you that I am sprinting in the direction of getting over myself and my need to be right in the eyes of others. Write me of as whatever you like, but these long drawn out arguments are unfruitful and a waste of my time. Like I have said time and time again I am interested in my experience with God, and whatever experience God may grant another.

I don't think the arguments are even close to unfruitful.  I think you're approaching them assuming the conclusion is false, and most of your responses reflect this.  You tend to say things that are mostly irrelevant.  For example, even if the number of Christians in Iran is increasing, that does not change the fact that the amount is still negligible, and that almost everyone in Iran dies and goes to hell.  I'm asking you to explain why this is.  Even if it is "getting better", that does not do anything to change the thousands of years that have passed.

Why does God love people in Iran less than he loves the people in America?

Based on... that he isn't compelling people to follow him?

I'm trying to determine how you're quantifying God's love.

no, based on the culture and the environment.  Christianity is less tolerated, less promoted and less prevalent in Iran.  Why is it that a person born in Iran has a massively greater chance of going to hell than someone who's born in America?  Does God put all of the souls he loves into bodies born in America?

Still along the lines of thoughtfulness, you have made clear your position that God and His existence can not be proven nor as you have stated can it be disproved. It is not my desire hear to argue this claim, rather I ask that you stick with your original arguments for the remainder of our conversations. Now if He cannot be disproved I fail to understand how you can here begin to lean in one direction…is there some sort of faith at work here?

This is probably the most naive argument that I hear.  Unfortunately, it's rather common.

Are you familiar with the burden of proof?  Why is it that you reject the existence of Zeus even though his existence cannot be disproved?  I don't think it's impossible that God exists, and I don't know that God doesn't exist, I do, however, believe (quite strongly) that God does not exist.  I am unfamiliar with any meaningful evidence that suggests God exists, and I am familiar with evidence that suggests a literal interpretation of the Bible is inconsistent with simple observation.  This is why I reject the existence of God, and why I'm rather convinced that the God of Christianity is even more unlikely.

Faith that he probably does not exist and therefore you lean in a direction to which you have stated there cannot be any objective proof? A direction to which you seem to have stated that you will neither agree nor disagree rather that you'd just walk in a way that is natural to you...

I don't think faith is appropriate to describe my beliefs.  Instead of blabbering on, I suggest you read this and trust my response would be similar:

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheism_is_based_on_faith