Excerpt from "Against Meat"

[iago]

::)

They're examples of things I find absolutely disgusting, and I think it's more a product of my genetics than my upbringing, especially considering the rest of my family likes both sea food and eggs.

Pfft. I proved that you're 2/3 vegan. Win!

(Fine, 2/4 vegan if you count onions)

I find it annoying that you mention this.  It's like you're saying

(1) Crazed made an argument similar to this
(2) Crazed is generally incapable of forming sound arguments
Therefore, (3) Your argument sucks.

Which is really stupid, and it's a sly way of attempting discrediting what I say.  I don't appreciate it.

I didn't really mean to imply that, it was more of a bonus. :P

But really, that's an argument I had with craz3d over and over -- society saying something is good or bad doesn't make something intrinsically good or bad. It's very similar to the arguments you presented.

So to conclude.... NO U!

The decision I'm trying to "justify" includes moral considerations, sure, but that doesn't mean that it necessarily only includes moral considerations.  This is exactly what I was pointing out.

Then that's a point we disagree on. I look beyond reasons that I consider selfish, and really just consider the justification of killing for pleasure/convenience/etc.

I suppose I was putting words in your mouth there, sorry about that.

Regardless, your "counter" doesn't do anything for me, because you're not me.  I don't want to deal with arranging my life around what I eat.  That sounds terrible.

That's sort of a hard thing for me to answer. In general, I don't arrange my life around what I eat. At least, not in any way I'd consider negative. I mean, when it's up to me, I choose restaurants/groceries/etc based on what I eat, and that can probably be considered a rearrangement, but it's not like it's extra work or effort. And I like that food, too. :)

This does mean that I end up eating shitty meals once in awhile. Like, for my dad's birthday he wanted to go to a steakhouse. So fine, I went and had a salad and baked potato. It sucked, yeah, but I'm ok with sacrificing some pleasure once in awhile rather than wanting something to lose its life for my desires.

By non-insignificant, you mean significant.  I don't care if the effort is reduced over time.  I still wasted my life reading the ingredients on food.  Yuck.  No thanks.

I wouldn't call it "significant".

Either way, when I started reading ingredients, I also started realizing how much chemicals/artificial crap is in the food I was eating. So besides avoiding animal products, I started avoiding other unnatural foods, especially ones whose first ingredients are sugar/oil.

I really learned a lot about food, and it's a great exercise for everybody. :)

No, that wasn't my argument.  Now you're putting words in my mouth.  I'm saying that a person who eats meat and puts less work into their diet than a vegan (but still more than the average person) can be just as healthy as a vegan.

Then I misunderstood what you said. You seemed to imply that vegan was a less healthy diet.

For what it's worth, health isn't my primary reason for being vegan.

I suppose this is fair, but considering I have tried a few, and I've found most of them completely disgusting, I think I'm reasonably qualified to say I wouldn't like that many vegan dishes.

Did I mention I hate onions too?

Damnit, all vegan food is made of onions and mushrooms!

Actually, I think you're crazy. Green onions AND yellow onions? Or just the yellow ones? Because green onions are the best. :)

While I haven't read vegan blogs (and sorry, I don't plan to), I have given quite a bit of consideration to their views.  I've decided (again and again) that I just don't care enough to change my lifestyle.

The thing is, you get a significantly more negative view of the meat industry (and such) if you're reading those blogs. Most people even don't realize all the horrible things that happen in farming (even when I became vegan, I actually hadn't done much research on modern farming.. now that I have, I'm even more glad :) ).

Maybe this is party because of my security background, but I believe that people should know exactly how secure their software/locks/etc are. In the same sense, people should know exactly where their food comes from, how it lived, and how it was killed. Factory farms are horrible places where there's all kinds of abuse and such, and apparently up to 99% of our meat comes from them (from that article in my first post :) ).

This kinda goes back to deadly's original question, though -- how do I feel about showing shock images to people?

And my answer is the same: most people refuse to believe (or think about) this kind of thing (I called it 'denial'), so it doesn't help. At least reading the blogs, you have the opportunity to research and such (I don't believe anything I read right away, I always find multiple sources).

You're not getting it

I'm saying that your analogy doesn't even work.  "It feels good" is a reason to rape.  I'm not saying it's anywhere near sufficient, but regardless, it is a reason.

I still think that analogy works, then. I view eating meat (and stuff) the same way -- perhaps it's a reason, it's just not nearly sufficient. We seem to agree on the meaning of the analogy, just not the text (I say it isn't a reason, you say it's a crappy reason.. whatever :) ).

"You can't criticize veganism until you try it!"

Ugh, that's so silly.  Of course I can.  If you really believe that, though, maybe I should get my girlfriend to post here.  She tried veganism for a month to prove a point, and she hated it.

There's a big difference between doing something to prove a point, and doing something because you want to.

I compare it to quitting smoking or becoming (religious/non-religious) -- if it's something you're doing to prove a point, or because somebody told you to, or because you saw it on tv, it's not going to work out. You're going to hate every minute of it, and fall off the wagon (so to speak) as soon as you can.

The right way to approach veganism, in my mind, is to have fun with it. Before I was vegan, I bought a cookbook that had a really good introduction (the 'what you need to know' stuff), read some blogs that post recipes, and tried various things. As I gave up meat and stuff, I had more fun with it -- I tried new things, and tried things I remembered hating when I was a kid. Because it was something I really wanted to experience, I enjoyed it a lot.

It's like going into a movie. If you have pre-conceptions about the movie being bad, you're probably going to think it's bad no matter what. If you approach it with an open mind, or even with a positive mind, you'll get a lot more out of the movie. I think veganism (and a lot of other things) are the same way.

Also, your girlfriend was obsessed with sprinkles. How can you trust anything she says!? (Just kidding -- I think the sprinkles thing was my fault :) ).

[Sidoh]

Pfft. I proved that you're 2/3 vegan. Win!

(Fine, 2/4 vegan if you count onions)

Haha... it's not that I'm against eating sea food or eggs.  I'm all for it.  I just think both taste really gross.

society saying something is good or bad doesn't make something intrinsically good or bad. It's very similar to the arguments you presented.

That's not the argument I'm making.

Then that's a point we disagree on. I look beyond reasons that I consider selfish, and really just consider the justification of killing for pleasure/convenience/etc.

Then we get into the debate "what is moral", which is an entire branch in philosophy.  I consider it immoral to not do things that are pleasureful.  Of course, there are often other considerations that more than cancel out the pleasure (i.e., rape, which I obviously consider immoral).

That's sort of a hard thing for me to answer. In general, I don't arrange my life around what I eat. At least, not in any way I'd consider negative. I mean, when it's up to me, I choose restaurants/groceries/etc based on what I eat, and that can probably be considered a rearrangement, but it's not like it's extra work or effort. And I like that food, too. :)

Really?  What about going out to eat with friends?  Are all of your friends vegan?  If you join them, certainly "serves vegan food" is a restriction on the places that you can visit.  What about a significant other?  What if they're not vegan/vegetarian?  Wouldn't that make many things more difficult?  These are the kinds of things I'm considering.

I wouldn't call it "significant".

Either way, when I started reading ingredients, I also started realizing how much chemicals/artificial crap is in the food I was eating. So besides avoiding animal products, I started avoiding other unnatural foods, especially ones whose first ingredients are sugar/oil.

I really learned a lot about food, and it's a great exercise for everybody. :)

I would. ;)

That's a benefit, but it isn't exclusive to veganism.  You can easily avoid the things you are without being vegan.

Damnit, all vegan food is made of onions and mushrooms!

Actually, I think you're crazy. Green onions AND yellow onions? Or just the yellow ones? Because green onions are the best. :)

I'm actually fine with onions if they're REALLY well cooked.  I don't mind the taste, either, I just hate the after effects.  When I have the lingering taste of death in my mouth, I feel like I want to vomit.

The thing is, you get a significantly more negative view of the meat industry (and such) if you're reading those blogs. Most people even don't realize all the horrible things that happen in farming (even when I became vegan, I actually hadn't done much research on modern farming.. now that I have, I'm even more glad :) ).

Maybe this is party because of my security background, but I believe that people should know exactly how secure their software/locks/etc are. In the same sense, people should know exactly where their food comes from, how it lived, and how it was killed. Factory farms are horrible places where there's all kinds of abuse and such, and apparently up to 99% of our meat comes from them (from that article in my first post :) ).

I'm sure there are things that I'd find objectionable.  I just don't care enough, though.  Sorry.

I'm not sure I follow the analogy.  Knowing how secure your software is allows you to understand the risks.  Knowing where your meat comes from allows you to avoid making moral assumptions about eating meat.

This kinda goes back to deadly's original question, though -- how do I feel about showing shock images to people?

And my answer is the same: most people refuse to believe (or think about) this kind of thing (I called it 'denial'), so it doesn't help. At least reading the blogs, you have the opportunity to research and such (I don't believe anything I read right away, I always find multiple sources).

You're still leaving out the last option: not caring.

I still think that analogy works, then. I view eating meat (and stuff) the same way -- perhaps it's a reason, it's just not nearly sufficient. We seem to agree on the meaning of the analogy, just not the text (I say it isn't a reason, you say it's a crappy reason.. whatever :) ).

If my ENTIRE argument were "Meat tastes good, therefore I eat meat", then your analogy might hold water.  However, it's a convergent argument.  That's one reason I don't want to be a vegan.

There's a big difference between doing something to prove a point, and doing something because you want to.

I agree, but if we're just talking about the foods that you have to eat, I don't see how it matters.  That's all I intended to respond to.

Also, your girlfriend was obsessed with sprinkles. How can you trust anything she says!? (Just kidding -- I think the sprinkles thing was my fault :) ).

Hahah.  Those sprinkles were awesome. :>

[iago]

Haha... it's not that I'm against eating sea food or eggs.  I'm all for it.  I just think both taste really gross.

Boo! :)

That's not the argument I'm making.

It was part of it, though.. and I was responding to that part. It was awhile back, I think, and maybe I had misinterpreted it.

Two of your initial four reasons were because it's difficult to do in our society, and my response was .. well, you know. Whatever. I think we disagree about the nature of the debate, so we likely won't agree on that bit :P

Then we get into the debate "what is moral", which is an entire branch in philosophy.  I consider it immoral to not do things that are pleasureful.  Of course, there are often other considerations that more than cancel out the pleasure (i.e., rape, which I obviously consider immoral).

Well, I consider killing immoral, for the same reason as rape. Maybe comparing it to using a puppy as a football would be a better comparison, and a lot more appropriate. :)

Really?  What about going out to eat with friends?  Are all of your friends vegan?  If you join them, certainly "serves vegan food" is a restriction on the places that you can visit.  What about a significant other?  What if they're not vegan/vegetarian?  Wouldn't that make many things more difficult?  These are the kinds of things I'm considering.

None of my friends (locally) are vegan, or even vegetarian. However, every restaurant has *something* that's vegan, even if it's just french fries and salad. That's rarely the case, though.. the most common places we go (and have always went) have a few options. And more often than not, we go to little independent eateries which typically have far better food than mainstream places, and have a selection of vegan options.

So yeah, it doesn't put any restriction on places I CAN go, just on places I LIKE going.

Also, I'd want a significant other to be vegan as well... I mean, why would I want to be with somebody who thinks it's ok for animals to die? :D

I would. ;)

That's a benefit, but it isn't exclusive to veganism.  You can easily avoid the things you are without being vegan.

It's true, but it's a nice side effect. I tend to be lazy, and the only way I go out of my way like that is if it's a requirement. :)

I'm actually fine with onions if they're REALLY well cooked.  I don't mind the taste, either, I just hate the after effects.  When I have the lingering taste of death in my mouth, I feel like I want to vomit.

Ah yes, I agree with that. But I'm willing to make that sacrifice. I definitely agree that REALLY well-cooked onions are the best.. dark brown or black (though not charred).

I'm sure there are things that I'd find objectionable.  I just don't care enough, though.  Sorry.

I'm not sure I follow the analogy.  Knowing how secure your software is allows you to understand the risks.  Knowing where your meat comes from allows you to avoid making moral assumptions about eating meat.

s/party/partly/ in what I said, but I think you got that.

But yes, what you said is what I meant.. everybody should know exactly where their food came from, which would allow them to make an informed choice. Like the security of locks, though, the companies don't want you to know because if you know how bad most locks are, nobody would buy them. :)

You're still leaving out the last option: not caring.

I don't think it's possible to know where meat comes from and not to care, unless you're a bad type of person. That's why I broke it down to two points initially (the part that you initially took exception to): denial (or just not knowing, really), or evilness. Only less glib. :)

If my ENTIRE argument were "Meat tastes good, therefore I eat meat", then your analogy might hold water.  However, it's a convergent argument.  That's one reason I don't want to be a vegan.

I wasn't using the analogy to fight your ENTIRE argument, I used it to counter a single point. That's why I didn't quote your whole argument! :)

I agree, but if we're just talking about the foods that you have to eat, I don't see how it matters.  That's all I intended to respond to.

I think it does matter, a lot. But eh?

Hahah.  Those sprinkles were awesome. :>

:D



<edit> Also, for what it's worth, thanks for keeping this discussion a little light hearted (I sensed a bit of tension at times, but eh? it's a touchy subject). But, this has become fun, and I think we've sort of reached agreement.

For what it's worth, I never try to press my beliefs on people, all I really do is answer questions when people ask them (which, in come cases, turns into this). I believe in this lifestyle, and I think it's the right way to live, and that everybody should live this way, but I also know that most people won't. And that's fine -- I don't pester or anything, I just keep quiet and set a good example, and answer questions when they ask (and people always ask things).

Arguing it here is actually great practice for arguing it in real life. It's nice to have thought about what people are going to ask, or talk about it somewhere that I can think about my answers. So it works out well for me.

[Sidoh]

It was part of it, though.. and I was responding to that part. It was awhile back, I think, and maybe I had misinterpreted it.

Two of your initial four reasons were because it's difficult to do in our society, and my response was .. well, you know. Whatever. I think we disagree about the nature of the debate, so we likely won't agree on that bit :P

It's just not the argument I'm making.  You put words in my mouth, and you seem to be covering that up here.  I didn't say that "because society thinks it's okay, it is okay."

I said I'm not willing to go through the extra effort of being vegan.

Well, I consider killing immoral, for the same reason as rape. Maybe comparing it to using a puppy as a football would be a better comparison, and a lot more appropriate. :)

That is more appropriate, but it's still not a good argument.  You try to discredit one premise on its own.  You haven't done that.

None of my friends (locally) are vegan, or even vegetarian. However, every restaurant has *something* that's vegan, even if it's just french fries and salad. That's rarely the case, though.. the most common places we go (and have always went) have a few options. And more often than not, we go to little independent eateries which typically have far better food than mainstream places, and have a selection of vegan options.

So yeah, it doesn't put any restriction on places I CAN go, just on places I LIKE going.

Also, I'd want a significant other to be vegan as well... I mean, why would I want to be with somebody who thinks it's ok for animals to die? :D

That's fair, I guess.

Sounds like you're going to be marrying a hippie.  :)

It's true, but it's a nice side effect. I tend to be lazy, and the only way I go out of my way like that is if it's a requirement. :)

That's fine, but I don't think it's fair to say that's an advantage of being vegan.  Perhaps saying it gives you the incentive to do so is fine, but suggesting that it's the only way (or leaving out the fact that it's easily possible without being vegan) is a bit sly, and doesn't really lend any credence to your argument.

Ah yes, I agree with that. But I'm willing to make that sacrifice. I definitely agree that REALLY well-cooked onions are the best.. dark brown or black (though not charred).

Ugh.  I had some Guacamole when my gf was here, and she put half of an onion (plus one avacado, and some other stuff, obviously).  My mouth tasted like onions for more than two days.  UGUGGHHH.  ew.

s/party/partly/ in what I said, but I think you got that.

But yes, what you said is what I meant.. everybody should know exactly where their food came from, which would allow them to make an informed choice. Like the security of locks, though, the companies don't want you to know because if you know how bad most locks are, nobody would buy them. :)

Ah, I guess I see what you're getting at.  I suppose that's fair.

I don't think it's possible to know where meat comes from and not to care, unless you're a bad type of person. That's why I broke it down to two points initially (the part that you initially took exception to): denial (or just not knowing, really), or evilness. Only less glib. :)

You make the assumption that people care as much about animals as you do.  This is not a safe assumption.

I wasn't using the analogy to fight your ENTIRE argument, I used it to counter a single point. That's why I didn't quote your whole argument! :)

Yes, and it didn't work at all.  You gave an argument that suggested it is alone an insufficient reason to eat meat, but it didn't show that it does not contribute to an argument concluding that eating meat is fine.  In fact, I think it'd be pretty silly to try.  I think it's obvious that it contributes to such an argument.

I think it does matter, a lot. But eh?

Why?  She ate vegan foods for a month and disliked it thoroughly.

<edit> Also, for what it's worth, thanks for keeping this discussion a little light hearted (I sensed a bit of tension at times, but eh? it's a touchy subject). But, this has become fun, and I think we've sort of reached agreement.

For what it's worth, I never try to press my beliefs on people, all I really do is answer questions when people ask them (which, in come cases, turns into this). I believe in this lifestyle, and I think it's the right way to live, and that everybody should live this way, but I also know that most people won't. And that's fine -- I don't pester or anything, I just keep quiet and set a good example, and answer questions when they ask (and people always ask things).

Arguing it here is actually great practice for arguing it in real life. It's nice to have thought about what people are going to ask, or talk about it somewhere that I can think about my answers. So it works out well for me.

I've enjoyed it too.  I can't say you've done much to convince me to become a vegan, but I suppose I'm slightly more curious. :)

[iago]

It's just not the argument I'm making.  You put words in my mouth, and you seem to be covering that up here.  I didn't say that "because society thinks it's okay, it is okay."

I said I'm not willing to go through the extra effort of being vegan.

*shrug* :)

That's fair, I guess.

Sounds like you're going to be marrying a hippie.  :)

Eww @ marriage. It's a frickin' scam!

But yes, if I ever decide to enter a relationship, It'd have to be with somebody with similar beliefs to me. But I'm rather happy with being alone, at least for now.

That's fine, but I don't think it's fair to say that's an advantage of being vegan.  Perhaps saying it gives you the incentive to do so is fine, but suggesting that it's the only way (or leaving out the fact that it's easily possible without being vegan) is a bit sly, and doesn't really lend any credence to your argument.

Well, it was an advantage to me. It may not be as much (or at all) an advantage to others. But that's fine. :)

Ugh.  I had some Guacamole when my gf was here, and she put half of an onion (plus one avacado, and some other stuff, obviously).  My mouth tasted like onions for more than two days.  UGUGGHHH.  ew.

Haha, I dislike Guacamole. I don't like avacados in general. I actually have one sitting on my counter, and it's ripe (on the verge of going overripe), and I'm not sure what to do with it. Likely just throw it out. :(

You make the assumption that people care as much about animals as you do.  This is not a safe assumption.

I find it really odd, though, that self-proclaimed animal lovers eat meat, and don't really think about the connection. I'll give an example.

My friend's ex-girlfriend (barely fair to say.. they dated like a month, broke up maybe a month ago) is a huge animal lover. We were watching a movie of some sort where a dog or cat or some kind of household animal is shot (or something -- I really forget what the situation was). She was very upset, and refused to continue watching. (while I'm using this particular girlfriend as an example, I'm pretty sure that's pretty normal behaviour).

However, during all this, she was eating a beef + pepperoni pizza. I couldn't help but think of the hypocrisy there -- I mean, you're upset that some movie producers pretended to kill/hurt an animal, yet you're ok with animals dying for your meal? Does that make any sense?

Of course, I didn't say anything. I find that bringing up that kind of thing is like telling an alcoholic they shouldn't have that extra drink -- they just get upset, and are less likely to listen to you later. I very much doubt that it's going to make them change their minds -- like the original thing I said to deadly7 all those pages ago.

Denial, man! Or, now that I think about it, maybe I should call it cognitive dissonance?

Whatever the case, perhaps you and others really don't care about animals (in which case, I hope you don't plan on getting a pet -- there's virtually no difference between the meat on your table and a household pet).

Yes, and it didn't work at all.  You gave an argument that suggested it is alone an insufficient reason to eat meat, but it didn't show that it does not contribute to an argument concluding that eating meat is fine.  In fact, I think it'd be pretty silly to try.  I think it's obvious that it contributes to such an argument.

I forget what we're talking about, so let's just agree to disagree. :)

Why?  She ate vegan foods for a month and disliked it thoroughly.

I don't know the situation, so I don't really have the ability to comment, but my impression from you is that here reasons weren't the best. I think it's important to approach a vegan lifestyle wanting to experience it, not wanting to prove a point.

I've enjoyed it too.  I can't say you've done much to convince me to become a vegan, but I suppose I'm slightly more curious. :)

That's good. I don't expect you to change, but I'm happy enough to raise a little awareness. Hopefully if anybody else is still reading this thread, it's given them something to think about -- like Tuberload, for example, who really started the line of questioning. :)

[Camel]

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

[Sidoh]

Eww @ marriage. It's a frickin' scam!

But yes, if I ever decide to enter a relationship, It'd have to be with somebody with similar beliefs to me. But I'm rather happy with being alone, at least for now.

Figures. :P

I'm pretty sure you're the only vegan I've met that wasn't a hippie. lol

Haha, I dislike Guacamole. I don't like avacados in general. I actually have one sitting on my counter, and it's ripe (on the verge of going overripe), and I'm not sure what to do with it. Likely just throw it out. :(

Haha.  I liked the Guacamole she made.  It was good, but the onions were wayyy tooo muuuchh. ew.

I find it really odd, though, that self-proclaimed animal lovers eat meat, and don't really think about the connection. I'll give an example.

My friend's ex-girlfriend (barely fair to say.. they dated like a month, broke up maybe a month ago) is a huge animal lover. We were watching a movie of some sort where a dog or cat or some kind of household animal is shot (or something -- I really forget what the situation was). She was very upset, and refused to continue watching. (while I'm using this particular girlfriend as an example, I'm pretty sure that's pretty normal behaviour).

However, during all this, she was eating a beef + pepperoni pizza. I couldn't help but think of the hypocrisy there -- I mean, you're upset that some movie producers pretended to kill/hurt an animal, yet you're ok with animals dying for your meal? Does that make any sense?

Of course, I didn't say anything. I find that bringing up that kind of thing is like telling an alcoholic they shouldn't have that extra drink -- they just get upset, and are less likely to listen to you later. I very much doubt that it's going to make them change their minds -- like the original thing I said to deadly7 all those pages ago.

I agree that there's something wrong with that, but there's another way to resolve it.  I don't care if people eat dogs.  Have at it.  Maybe it's good.

Denial, man! Or, now that I think about it, maybe I should call it cognitive dissonance?

In a lot of cases, there probably is some repressed cognitive dissonance present in a lot of people who eat meat, but I don't think it's there in all of them.

Whatever the case, perhaps you and others really don't care about animals (in which case, I hope you don't plan on getting a pet -- there's virtually no difference between the meat on your table and a household pet).

Just because I don't care about animals in general doesn't mean I can't care about an individual animal.

I forget what we're talking about, so let's just agree to disagree. :)

I'm quite sure you're wrong.  I was responding to your rape analogy, which tried to discredit a single point in my argument.  However, unless you can show that the advantage I highlight isn't an advantage at all, you've done nothing to invalidate the premise.

I don't know the situation, so I don't really have the ability to comment, but my impression from you is that here reasons weren't the best. I think it's important to approach a vegan lifestyle wanting to experience it, not wanting to prove a point.

This really has nothing to do with the lifestyle.  I'm purely responding to the tastes of the foods you're restricted to.

That's good. I don't expect you to change, but I'm happy enough to raise a little awareness. Hopefully if anybody else is still reading this thread, it's given them something to think about -- like Tuberload, for example, who really started the line of questioning. :)

All in all, I'm sure there are many things that I would find cruel and disgusting in the meat industry.  However, I'm completely unconvinced (convinced otherwise, in fact) that becoming a vegan is the only way to respond to that appropriately.

[Tuberload]

That's good. I don't expect you to change, but I'm happy enough to raise a little awareness. Hopefully if anybody else is still reading this thread, it's given them something to think about -- like Tuberload, for example, who really started the line of questioning. :)

What makes you think I would even be following this craziness?  ;)

First, I am very unaware of the way in which animals are farmed and treated on these farms. Although I did hear a story about fosters growing genetically altered chickens that had no feathers or beaks and such which caused me to recoil from there brand in a more than mild disgust. That being said, a more enlightened awareness would probably cause me to more heavily discriminate my sources of food.

Second, I have some thoughts concerning the issue of denial. Without going into much detail at first glance it becomes more of an issue of conscience for me, which is heavily molded by my faith and current level of revelation. Taking a second glance, my first point comes into play and I find myself a little more uneasy with the methods used by man in producing the meat. A third glance would bring me into issues of either emotional attachment, or detachment. If I find myself becoming emotionally attached to an animal then I find within my heart it becomes like a part of my family. However because of first glance reasoning most animals do not find such a place within my heart and I therefore am not hindered by my emotions. Is this denial? And if it is fitting to define it as such, is it unhealthy? These are the questions I would have to ask, and then again it would be guided by my faith and the conscience therein produced. All that being said I am not one to just flow with the masses and think the issues of animal farming are real ones that would need to change, although I do not have the proper understanding of the issues to make any conclusions.

Third, concerning issues of health and convenience I am persuaded that my upbringing and current mind on the issue are irrelevant. What I mean by this is that I will not sit here and try to argue with you just for the sake of being a raging bull only capable of seeing red. This is the way I am, so you better prepare yourself to be charged and if possible trampled. If there is a better way to live my life then I would have to step out of myself and examine legitimate data before I could make proper decisions. I am very interested in my health, and personally issues of convenience are more issues of my own unwillingness to change because I am a creature of comfort and habit. With all that being said I throw my hands in the air and say I just don't know. I do however believe that to let my heart flow unchecked is not producing the best quality of life.

To conclude, my ideal situation would be to own land and produce my own food. This would be heavily reliant upon an organic garden, but would also include meat. I have observed cows and am hard pressed to believe that allowing them to wander around several acres of land is in anyway hindering there quality of life. I would not be cruel to my animals, and if emotional attachment should arise in either family or me then I would have to cross that bridge when I came upon it. From there I would be guided by conscience and faith. The animals would have a relatively safe environment to grow, eat, receive medical attention, etc, and there end would be as quick and painless as I could provide. Sure seems as if that beats getting ripped to shreds by a more violent carnivore, or breaking its legs and being left to suffer and die.

[iago]

Figures. :P

I'm pretty sure you're the only vegan I've met that wasn't a hippie. lol

Haha, well, I haven't met any vegans that ARE hippies, although it really depends how how broad your definition of 'hippie' is. I'm sure under some definitions, I'd fall under it. :-o

I agree that there's something wrong with that, but there's another way to resolve it.  I don't care if people eat dogs.  Have at it.  Maybe it's good.

That's good too. That's exactly what I tell people -- you only have a couple options:
1) Be in favour of eating all animals (and possibly people, why restrict yourself)
2) Be in favour of not eating animals
3) Define some kind of meaningful criteria ('fish don't feel pain' I can sort of understand, but 'puppies are cute and cows aren't' is pretty lame)

In a lot of cases, there probably is some repressed cognitive dissonance present in a lot of people who eat meat, but I don't think it's there in all of them.

Perhaps it varies between denial/ignorance and cognitive dissonance and, perhaps, callousness, at least for people who think about it.

Just because I don't care about animals in general doesn't mean I can't care about an individual animal.

"I only murder CERTAIN people! I'm not a bad person!" ;)

I'm quite sure you're wrong.  I was responding to your rape analogy, which tried to discredit a single point in my argument.  However, unless you can show that the advantage I highlight isn't an advantage at all, you've done nothing to invalidate the premise.

Although I ought to read back in the thread, I'm only willing to devote so much time to this! :)

I'm not sure if I ever tried using that to counter one of your arguments, specifically.. rather, I seem to recall using it to rule out an argument before it was made. Something along the lines of, "What are your reasons, and don't use 'it tastes good' because ....". I could be wrong, though. :)

This really has nothing to do with the lifestyle.  I'm purely responding to the tastes of the foods you're restricted to.

I think they're related. There are a lot of different things you can eat as a vegan, ranging from boring crap that people generally picture vegans eating, to fairly interesting and tasty things, that I typically make/eat. If you're eating vegan to prove a point, you probably aren't going to explore the full complement of possibilities.

That kinda reminds me of a blog I sometimes read, "sick of salad". I personally eat very little salad. :)

All in all, I'm sure there are many things that I would find cruel and disgusting in the meat industry.  However, I'm completely unconvinced (convinced otherwise, in fact) that becoming a vegan is the only way to respond to that appropriately.

That's fine.

Personally, I don't want to support an industry based on killing, at all. Even if I knew all animals were properly treated and killed nicely, I still wouldn't stop being vegan. I just consider meat to be morally wrong.

But, the current meat industry (where 99% of meat comes from) goes well beyond my cutoff point. I don't eat meat because I don't think it's right to eat meat; others, who might still think it's ok, shouldn't eat meat because of how horrible the current meat industry is. It's sort of a sliding scale, and in the modern world we're strongly at the "bad" end, where no good person should be supporting it. :)

[iago]

What makes you think I would even be following this craziness?  ;)

You asked the original question, and you responded when I mentioned your name. Therefore, you must have been following it at least to some extent. ha! :P

First, I am very unaware of the way in which animals are farmed and treated on these farms. Although I did hear a story about fosters growing genetically altered chickens that had no feathers or beaks and such which caused me to recoil from there brand in a more than mild disgust. That being said, a more enlightened awareness would probably cause me to more heavily discriminate my sources of food.

Second, I have some thoughts concerning the issue of denial. Without going into much detail at first glance it becomes more of an issue of conscience for me, which is heavily molded by my faith and current level of revelation. Taking a second glance, my first point comes into play and I find myself a little more uneasy with the methods used by man in producing the meat. A third glance would bring me into issues of either emotional attachment, or detachment. If I find myself becoming emotionally attached to an animal then I find within my heart it becomes like a part of my family. However because of first glance reasoning most animals do not find such a place within my heart and I therefore am not hindered by my emotions. Is this denial? And if it is fitting to define it as such, is it unhealthy? These are the questions I would have to ask, and then again it would be guided by my faith and the conscience therein produced. All that being said I am not one to just flow with the masses and think the issues of animal farming are real ones that would need to change, although I do not have the proper understanding of the issues to make any conclusions.

Third, concerning issues of health and convenience I am persuaded that my upbringing and current mind on the issue are irrelevant. What I mean by this is that I will not sit here and try to argue with you just for the sake of being a raging bull only capable of seeing red. This is the way I am, so you better prepare yourself to be charged and if possible trampled. If there is a better way to live my life then I would have to step out of myself and examine legitimate data before I could make proper decisions. I am very interested in my health, and personally issues of convenience are more issues of my own unwillingness to change because I am a creature of comfort and habit. With all that being said I throw my hands in the air and say I just don't know. I do however believe that to let my heart flow unchecked is not producing the best quality of life.

I fully respect what you're saying here, and for the most part I agree.

I have seen a lot of really horrible videos and read a lot of blogs/etc about things that happen in the meat industry. It stems from people treating animals as objects (or products), not as living creatures. When the main goal is profit, they're going to raise the animals as quickly and as cheaply as possible, without regard to animal welfare. That means they should be fed as much as possible, given pharmaceuticals to help them grow faster, given the minimum amount of space they can survive in, and killed as early as possible.

The worst parse, in my opinion, is that animals that are 'useless', such as the vast majority of male cows/chickens (bulls/cocks..whatever) are killed immediately after birth, normally in an incredibly inhumane way (baby chickens are stuffed in bags and/or ground up in machinery, alive).

But, like I said to deadly earlier, I *really* don't like giving graphic descriptions to people. It normally just makes them not want to hear what you say, and I can totally see why. I try to post things that are veg*n friendly without being really graphic or anything, so as to turn people off.

To conclude, my ideal situation would be to own land and produce my own food. This would be heavily reliant upon an organic garden, but would also include meat. I have observed cows and am hard pressed to believe that allowing them to wander around several acres of land is in anyway hindering there quality of life. I would not be cruel to my animals, and if emotional attachment should arise in either family or me then I would have to cross that bridge when I came upon it. From there I would be guided by conscience and faith. The animals would have a relatively safe environment to grow, eat, receive medical attention, etc, and there end would be as quick and painless as I could provide. Sure seems as if that beats getting ripped to shreds by a more violent carnivore, or breaking its legs and being left to suffer and die.

I think that would be a fine lifestyle, one where you can be assured that the animals aren't being harmed.

That being said, it's also somewhat selfish, in my mind. Animals take substantially more resources to raise than plants. A more utilitarian method would be raising plants either using less land, or giving the excess to people who need it. But that's just my opinion -- as far as farming goes, that's probably the best way.

[Tuberload]

You asked the original question, and you responded when I mentioned your name. Therefore, you must have been following it at least to some extent. ha! :P

Just trying to introduce a light heartedness from the get go.  :)

I fully respect what you're saying here, and for the most part I agree.

Since we have already been able to, for the most part, find agreement I will not brandish my sword and start swinging it at you over the minor issues in which we do not.

I have seen a lot of really horrible videos and read a lot of blogs/etc about things that happen in the meat industry. It stems from people treating animals as objects (or products), not as living creatures. When the main goal is profit, they're going to raise the animals as quickly and as cheaply as possible, without regard to animal welfare. That means they should be fed as much as possible, given pharmaceuticals to help them grow faster, given the minimum amount of space they can survive in, and killed as early as possible.

The worst parse, in my opinion, is that animals that are 'useless', such as the vast majority of male cows/chickens (bulls/cocks..whatever) are killed immediately after birth, normally in an incredibly inhumane way (baby chickens are stuffed in bags and/or ground up in machinery, alive).

But, like I said to deadly earlier, I *really* don't like giving graphic descriptions to people. It normally just makes them not want to hear what you say, and I can totally see why. I try to post things that are veg*n friendly without being really graphic or anything, so as to turn people off.

I am not well viewed in such content, so I would need further legitimate data of which I am sure there is abundance.

I think that would be a fine lifestyle, one where you can be assured that the animals aren't being harmed.

That being said, it's also somewhat selfish, in my mind. Animals take substantially more resources to raise than plants. A more utilitarian method would be raising plants either using less land, or giving the excess to people who need it. But that's just my opinion -- as far as farming goes, that's probably the best way.

I find myself a little confused as to the reason for this selfishness. Is it because I own the land in which the animals graze therefore somehow robbing humanity of resources result of my over abundance? Before I venture an answer I would like to broaden my grasp of the issue at hand.

[iago]

Just trying to introduce a light heartedness from the get go.  :)

And I carried it on. Kinda. :)

Since we have already been able to, for the most part, find agreement I will not brandish my sword and start swinging it at you over the minor issues in which we do not.

you're no fun! :)

I am not well viewed in such content, so I would need further legitimate data of which I am sure there is abundance.

There is, and I see it all the time. I'll post a link next time I come across something.

I find myself a little confused as to the reason for this selfishness. Is it because I own the land in which the animals graze therefore somehow robbing humanity of resources result of my over abundance? Before I venture an answer I would like to broaden my grasp of the issue at hand.

That's pretty much what I mean, yeah. I'm not saying it's a killing blow, I think it'd be great if somebody was able to do that, but there are drawbacks to everything. It's all about weighing the benefits/drawbacks. :)

[Tuberload]

That's pretty much what I mean, yeah. I'm not saying it's a killing blow, I think it'd be great if somebody was able to do that, but there are drawbacks to everything. It's all about weighing the benefits/drawbacks. :)

Well then that being the case I can at least in part reveal where I stand on the issue.

From what I have heard the current population of the world could be herded together to fit within the state of Florida. Now I recognize that I do not have a legitimate source to verify this claim on hand, but I tend to believe that it is accurate none the less. I believe there is plenty of land and resources to go around and think the issue lie not with a selfish desire to own a couple of acres of land and animals, but rather in the way the powers that be run the world. Unless of course one would think the right thing for humanity to do is build skyscrapers in which families live in as small a space as possible.

Now whether the animal is grazing on my land, someone else's land, state or national land, or whatever, the fact is the animal is going to continue to eat. I fail to see the selflessness in my harvesting only a small garden thereby not selfishly consuming resources in the raising of animal. It would seem that the only solution to the cost of resources incurred by the consumption of the animal would be to eliminate the animal altogether. From one perspective it could be seen as doing the world a favor by limiting the grazing of the animal to my land alone.

Onto the issue of providing for others, I myself am very generous at heart and would find great joy in the giving of my increase to those in need. It would be one of the many joys of the blessing of prosperity when handled in the right way. I think greed corrupts but I do not believe that prosperity is a bad thing in and of itself. I hold the position that prosperity is meant for the sake of many therefore I look for ways to disperse it that many may in fact be blessed.

As a side note I have come to such a realization, that when the time in fact came to put the animal down I do not know how I would feel about putting a device to the back of its head were the spinal cord attaches to its brain and pulling the trigger. This is just a note of interest that although one might argue his position, it in fact may not be the position held when placed in such a situation. This is said to explain why I am only able to reveal in part where I stand on the said issue.

[iago]

As a side note I have come to such a realization, that when the time in fact came to put the animal down I do not know how I would feel about putting a device to the back of its head were the spinal cord attaches to its brain and pulling the trigger. This is just a note of interest that although one might argue his position, it in fact may not be the position held when placed in such a situation. This is said to explain why I am only able to reveal in part where I stand on the said issue.

This isn't targeted toward you specifically, but people in general.

I expect that the majority of people would have trouble killing an animal while looking it in its eye. But at the same time, those people don't think twice about eating a hotdog, or feeding a hotdog to their children.

This seems odd to me. :)

[Tuberload]

This isn't targeted toward you specifically, but people in general.

I expect that the majority of people would have trouble killing an animal while looking it in its eye. But at the same time, those people don't think twice about eating a hotdog, or feeding a hotdog to their children.

This seems odd to me. :)

Let's say for example that I know my children have need of positive loving discipline in there lives so that they will grow up to be productive citizens in life who contribute to the general welfare of society as a whole. However when faced with the challenge of implementing this discipline I find an emotional block inside of me that severally hinders my willingness to follow through. Yet I know that this is a mountain that must be overcome within my soul lest my children grow up to be another darkened statistic of America's rapidly declining population.

The point at hand is the emotional block that is present within. Does this block justify a claim that positive loving discipline is in fact not ok? Therefore does a potential emotional block when putting my animal down justify a moral stance against the action itself?