Agnostic.

[Armin]

According to what I've heard, Christianity is based upon having faith that God exists. Faith is the strong belief in an idea. Since the circumstances on getting accepted into heaven hasn't changed since Jesus died on the cross, so it's basically timeless (until of course that huge Heaven vs Hell war). Since ideas are never a proven fact, until of course somebody can prove them, does this mean that Christians believe that it is impossible to know for a fact whether there is a God, yet they just have strong belief that there is a God? Does this mean that Christians are, in a way, agnostic?

If the above is true, I want to put a few of my beliefs into question. If God exists, then he will accept you into Heaven if you show faith. If this is true, I believe that when God put time in motion, he set it in motion so everything can be described through science, as since it's all about faith, if he made it possible to scientifically prove his existence, or if he made it impossible to scientifically the world and the universe we live in, then instead of having faith, it would be knowing, and it would fuck everything up.

I posted this because I want to challenge my beliefs.

[Sidoh]

According to what I've heard, Christianity is based upon having faith that God exists. Faith is the strong belief in an idea. Since the circumstances on getting accepted into heaven hasn't changed since Jesus died on the cross, so it's basically timeless (until of course that huge Heaven vs Hell war). Since ideas are never a proven fact, until of course somebody can prove them, does this mean that Christians believe that it is impossible to know for a fact whether there is a God, yet they just have strong belief that there is a God? Does this mean that Christians are, in a way, agnostic?

Faith isn't supposed to be logical.  Faith is believing in something, regardless of the logical or scientific proof implying otherwise (or lack thereof).  No, Christians are not agnostic.  An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if God exists or not.  A Christian may not be able to prove that God exists beyond reasonable doubt, but they can believe that God exists by faith alone.

If the above is true, I want to put a few of my beliefs into question. If God exists, then he will accept you into Heaven if you show faith. If this is true, I believe that when God put time in motion, he set it in motion so everything can be described through science, as since it's all about faith, if he made it possible to scientifically prove his existence, or if he made it impossible to scientifically the world and the universe we live in, then instead of having faith, it would be knowing, and it would fuck everything up.

I posted this because I want to challenge my beliefs.

Why would God make everything proveable through science?  I don't see any reason that this should be the case.

[Armin]

According to what I've heard, Christianity is based upon having faith that God exists. Faith is the strong belief in an idea. Since the circumstances on getting accepted into heaven hasn't changed since Jesus died on the cross, so it's basically timeless (until of course that huge Heaven vs Hell war). Since ideas are never a proven fact, until of course somebody can prove them, does this mean that Christians believe that it is impossible to know for a fact whether there is a God, yet they just have strong belief that there is a God? Does this mean that Christians are, in a way, agnostic?

Faith isn't supposed to be logical.  Faith is believing in something, regardless of the logical or scientific proof implying otherwise (or lack thereof).  No, Christians are not agnostic.  An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if God exists or not.  A Christian may not be able to prove that God exists beyond reasonable doubt, but they can believe that God exists by faith alone.

I never said faith is supposed to be logical. By definition, an agnostic is somebody that thinks it's impossible to know whether or not God exists. Christians don't know, they strongly believe. No matter how much they think they know, they only strongly believe. Anyways, I'm just trying to be a technical ass here, it doesn't really matter. What I was trying to get across, is that it's impossible to prove God's existance.

If the above is true, I want to put a few of my beliefs into question. If God exists, then he will accept you into Heaven if you show faith. If this is true, I believe that when God put time in motion, he set it in motion so everything can be described through science, as since it's all about faith, if he made it possible to scientifically prove his existence, or if he made it impossible to scientifically the world and the universe we live in, then instead of having faith, it would be knowing, and it would fuck everything up.

I posted this because I want to challenge my beliefs.

Why would God make everything proveable through science?  I don't see any reason that this should be the case.

Reread my post, I explained it perfectly fine.

[Sidoh]

I never said faith is supposed to be logical. By definition, an agnostic is somebody that thinks it's impossible to know whether or not God exists. Christians don't know, they strongly believe. No matter how much they think they know, they only strongly believe. Anyways, I'm just trying to be a technical ass here, it doesn't really matter. What I was trying to get across, is that it's impossible to prove God's existance.

Currently, there may be no way to cast away the inherent shadow of doubt that any proof for the existence of God entails, but that doesn't mean that it will forever be impossible.

You can't say that people don't know God exists.  Faith fills in the gap for belief.

Here's a scenario: do you love your parents?  music?  your siblings?  Prove it.  If you can't, you don't love them.  Simple as that... right? (See what I mean?)

Reread my post, I explained it perfectly fine.

I don't think so.  The way you worded whatever you're tyring to say is pretty convoluted, so I'm going to attempt to clarify it: you believe that God made it possible to prove everything scientifically?  You believe that he made the entire universe understandable by a miniscule, finite mind?

[Joe]

The existance of God was proven nearly 2000 years ago when Jesus rose from the dead, but of course none still live who saw it. If Christianity is not a lie, it'll be proven again soon by the rapture and the battle of Armageddon, and eventually the world being destroyed. Technically, I guess we're agnostic because at this very second in time we can't prove his existance, but we're not agnostic in the intended meaning.

[Eric]

I never said faith is supposed to be logical. By definition, an agnostic is somebody that thinks it's impossible to know whether or not God exists. Christians don't know, they strongly believe. No matter how much they think they know, they only strongly believe. Anyways, I'm just trying to be a technical ass here, it doesn't really matter. What I was trying to get across, is that it's impossible to prove God's existance.

Here's a scenario: do you love your parents?  music?  your siblings?  Prove it.  If you can't, you don't love them.  Simple as that... right? (See what I mean?)

You stole that from Contact!

[Sidoh]

You stole that from Contact!

Hehe, I just watched it again a few days ago.  It's such an excellent movie.  I love Haden: "Wanna take a ride?"

I actually meant to credit it, but the thought skipped my mind before I continued composing my message. :(

[Armin]

I never said faith is supposed to be logical. By definition, an agnostic is somebody that thinks it's impossible to know whether or not God exists. Christians don't know, they strongly believe. No matter how much they think they know, they only strongly believe. Anyways, I'm just trying to be a technical ass here, it doesn't really matter. What I was trying to get across, is that it's impossible to prove God's existance.

Currently, there may be no way to cast away the inherent shadow of doubt that any proof for the existence of God entails, but that doesn't mean that it will forever be impossible.

(until of course that huge Heaven vs Hell war)

You can't say that people don't know God exists. Faith fills in the gap for belief.

Here's a scenario: do you love your parents?  music?  your siblings?  Prove it.  If you can't, you don't love them.  Simple as that... right? (See what I mean?)

Anyways, I'm just trying to be a technical ass here, it doesn't really matter. What I was trying to get across, is that it's impossible to prove God's existance.

Stop misreading what I'm saying. I'm NOT trying to disprove the existance of God, I'm only trying to clarify that everyone believes it's impossible to prove his existance.

Reread my post, I explained it perfectly fine.

I don't think so.  The way you worded whatever you're tyring to say is pretty convoluted, so I'm going to attempt to clarify it: you believe that God made it possible to prove everything scientifically?  You believe that he made the entire universe understandable by a miniscule, finite mind?

I feel that if God does exist, he would make it so it's eventually possible to understand. I believe that if he did not, eventually scientists will not only find things that don't add up when they should, they will eventually be able to prove it. That means if the universe we live in is a stage, there must be a God, taking the entire faith thing out of the picture, and turning it into common knowledge. Then what will be the purpose of this test we're living in, if we already know all the answers? And no, I don't believe the universe is understandable by a miniscule, finite mind, which is just stupid if you seriously think I meant that. It's impossible for anyone to know everything.

Anyways, just to make sure you fully understand this, I'm NOT trying to disprove the existance of God. I'm trying to challenge some of my theories, which aren't really useful to anyone but myself. Your constant misreading of what I'm asking definately isn't helping. If anyone really takes the time to read and understand my thread, along with having no pre-conceived notion about the purpose of my thread, then they should be able to understand it fine.

x86] link=topic=6992.msg86681#msg86681 date=1155361218]
The existance of God was proven nearly 2000 years ago when Jesus rose from the dead, but of course none still live who saw it. If Christianity is not a lie, it'll be proven again soon by the rapture and the battle of Armageddon, and eventually the world being destroyed. Technically, I guess we're agnostic because at this very second in time we can't prove his existance, but we're not agnostic in the intended meaning. Even Joe seemed to understand it.

Yeah, like I said in my second post to Sidoh, I was basically trying to be a technical ass. Most of that build-up was for the second paragraph in my original post, though.

[Sidoh]

Stop misreading what I'm saying. I'm NOT trying to disprove the existance of God, I'm only trying to clarify that everyone believes it's impossible to prove his existance.

If there was a universally acceptable proof for either side of the argument, I don't think we'd be discussing this.

The point of my last post was to show you that you can believe or know something while being unable to prove it.  Christians can believe and know that God exists even while they're incapable of proving to anyone else that they believe he exists.  My example illustrates that quite well, I think.  An agnostic is someone who believes that it is impossible to prove that God exists and, consequentially, refuses to believe in Him.  Christians are not Agnostic; they believe in God without proof -- they have faith: that which does not require proof for belief.

I feel that if God does exist, he would make it so it's eventually possible to understand. I believe that if he did not, eventually scientists will not only find things that don't add up when they should, they will eventually be able to prove it. That means if the universe we live in is a stage, there must be a God, taking the entire faith thing out of the picture, and turning it into common knowledge. Then what will be the purpose of this test we're living in, if we already know all the answers? And no, I don't believe the universe is understandable by a miniscule, finite mind, which is just stupid if you seriously think I meant that. It's impossible for anyone to know everything.

Why would God make it possible to prove his existence at some point in our time?  God doesn't have to comply with any set of logical boundaries.  He doesn't have to act on human intuition.  You can believe that if you want, but I think it would be unwise to accept it as the absolute truth.  Applying guesses derived from human intuition to a deity doesn't make any sense to me.

I'll show you why I thought that.  Hopefully after you see that I was simply countering one of your posts you'll not see my retort as "stupid." :P :

If the above is true, I want to put a few of my beliefs into question. If God exists, then he will accept you into Heaven if you show faith. If this is true, I believe that when God put time in motion, he set it in motion so everything can be described through science, as since it's all about faith, if he made it possible to scientifically prove his existence, or if he made it impossible to scientifically the world and the universe we live in, then instead of having faith, it would be knowing, and it would fuck everything up.

If "everything" was supposed to be referring to "everything" in reference to the proof of the existence of God, perhaps you should define your scope before using such a broad term. :P

Anyways, just to make sure you fully understand this, I'm NOT trying to disprove the existance of God. I'm trying to challenge some of my theories, which aren't really useful to anyone but myself. Your constant misreading of what I'm asking definately isn't helping. If anyone really takes the time to read and understand my thread, along with having no pre-conceived notion about the purpose of my thread, then they should be able to understand it fine.

I think you have some fundamental problems with your theories.

[rabbit]

x86] link=topic=6992.msg86681#msg86681 date=1155361218]
The existance of God was proven nearly 2000 years ago when Jesus rose from the dead, but of course none still live who saw it. If Christianity is not a lie, it'll be proven again soon by the rapture and the battle of Armageddon, and eventually the world being destroyed. Technically, I guess we're agnostic because at this very second in time we can't prove his existance, but we're not agnostic in the intended meaning.

Prove God's existence was proven.  Prove the rapture will happen.  Prove, if the rapture will happen, that it will happen soon.  All the Christians and Catholics are psychopaths: "YAY END OF THE WORLD!"  Fucktards (offense meant).  If you don't care about the rest of the planet and instead only want to be with God and Jesus, you are guilty of Greed and are therefore going strait to hell.  A true believer would not want the rapture to happen so that he or she has more time to try to Save others.

[deadly7]

x86] link=topic=6992.msg86681#msg86681 date=1155361218]
The existance of God was proven nearly 2000 years ago when Jesus rose from the dead, but of course none still live who saw it. If Christianity is not a lie, it'll be proven again soon by the rapture and the battle of Armageddon, and eventually the world being destroyed. Technically, I guess we're agnostic because at this very second in time we can't prove his existance, but we're not agnostic in the intended meaning.

I don't know how many times people will say this and continue to say this because you have absolutely no chance of understanding, but: YOU CANNOT PROVE THE EXISTANCE OF GOD USING SCRIPTURES OR OTHER RELIGIOUS MATERIAL.

[skip]

x86] link=topic=6992.msg86681#msg86681 date=1155361218]
The existance of God was proven nearly 2000 years ago when Jesus rose from the dead, but of course none still live who saw it. If Christianity is not a lie, it'll be proven again soon by the rapture and the battle of Armageddon, and eventually the world being destroyed. Technically, I guess we're agnostic because at this very second in time we can't prove his existance, but we're not agnostic in the intended meaning.

Prove God's existence was proven.  Prove the rapture will happen.  Prove, if the rapture will happen, that it will happen soon.  All the Christians and Catholics are psychopaths: "YAY END OF THE WORLD!"  Fucktards (offense meant).  If you don't care about the rest of the planet and instead only want to be with God and Jesus, you are guilty of Greed and are therefore going strait to hell.  A true believer would not want the rapture to happen so that he or she has more time to try to Save others.

You apparently do not know much about Christianity. So, I suggest you not try and pretend you do, it makes you look stupid. Don't take that offensively, please.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand but... take a look around you. Animals, nature, humans, EVERYTHING. Do you honestly think that happened by accident? That us even being alive on this Earth is a pure accident? The fact that even a slight mishap within our bodies would have made us unable to live.

I have friends who can speak tongue, which is a spiritual gift. Do you think that they are pretending to speak another language?

A good website: http://www.answersingenesis.org/
Look around the site, read the articles. Do it without a biased point of view. Seriously.

[Armin]

Well, Sidoh, I had a nice response to your post last night, yet FF had some freak accident and decided to randomly close. Since I don't want to write it all over again, I'm just going to be brief, and not reply to every little thing.

Why would God make it possible to prove his existence at some point in our time?  God doesn't have to comply with any set of logical boundaries.  He doesn't have to act on human intuition.  You can believe that if you want, but I think it would be unwise to accept it as the absolute truth.  Applying guesses derived from human intuition to a deity doesn't make any sense to me.

This is something that I was looking for when I posted it, you finally understood one thing I was trying to say. Anyways, I actually thought a little about this before you posted this, and you made me think about it even more. Thank you, I now believe there are other possibilities than my theory.

I think you have some fundamental problems with your theories.

Theory*, and yes, I posted it here so I could find flaws, not to attempt to spread knowledge.

Just to get one last thing straight though:

If there was a universally acceptable proof for either side of the argument, I don't think we'd be discussing this.

The thing is, we weren't argueing. You think we were argueing about whether Christians are agnostic or not, even though I said this in my second post:

Anyways, I'm just trying to be a technical ass here, it doesn't really matter. What I was trying to get across, is that it's impossible to prove God's existance.

That wasn't a theory, it was just me being a technical ass. I also looked up the definition of "know", and found out I was technically wrong. Too bad it had absolutely nothing to do with my theory, and really nothing to do with disproving the existance of God. That whole first paragraph was just a build-up to the second paragraph, with the exception of that whole agnostic line.

[rabbit]

www.answersingenesis.org [...]
Do it without a biased point of view.

You realize that claiming to have answers outright in a 5000 year old text that nobody can prove or disprove is unbiased?

[skip]

www.answersingenesis.org [...]
Do it without a biased point of view.

You realize that claiming to have answers outright in a 5000 year old text that nobody can prove or disprove is unbiased?

Did you even go to the site?
You probably didn't even read ONE article on that site and you're already saying shit. It's the same thing as you trying to disprove Christianity. You don't know shit and you're acting like you do.

People like you really tick me off.