Microsoft vs The Free World

[Newby]

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/05/28/100033867/

But now there's a shadow hanging over Linux and other free software, and it's being cast by Microsoft (Charts, Fortune 500). The Redmond behemoth asserts that one reason free software is of such high quality is that it violates more than 200 of Microsoft's patents. And as a mature company facing unfavorable market trends and fearsome competitors like Google (Charts, Fortune 500), Microsoft is pulling no punches: It wants royalties. If the company gets its way, free software won't be free anymore.

...

The Linux graphical user interfaces - essentially, the way design elements like menus and toolbars are set up - run afoul of another 65, he claims. The Open Office suite of programs, which is analogous to Microsoft Office, infringes 45 more. E-mail programs infringe 15, while other assorted FOSS programs allegedly transgress 68.

[iago]

I think that this is interesting for a couple reasons.

First of all, it's proof of how bad software "patents" actually are. A good part of the community has known for a long time that patenting things like "double clicking", "tabbed interfaces", and "icons" was a bad idea. Every programmer here has likely violated somebody's patent in code they've written. So far, the only saving grace is that nobody has enforced this. If Microsoft goes through with this, hopefully it'll raise awareness of this problem enough that the patent system will be reformed.

On that point, this also shows that software patents can help companies enforce a monopoly. If Microsoft suddenly throws down the patent on windows, icons, tabs, and the "e" key, any company using them may be forced to pay ridiculous extortion fees (err, license fees) or, basically, shut down. That's basically how a monopoly works.

Second, the fact that Microsoft, after all these years, has finally revealed their hand shows that they're scared. You don't hold your cards for 10 years then finally throw them on the table for no reason. They're beginning to see Linux as more of a threat, and now they want to do something about it.

In any case, unless somebody withdraws or settles, I don't see this being over for a few years at least.

[iago]

And furthermore...

Microsoft General Counsel Brad Smith and licensing chief Horacio Gutierrez sat down with Fortune recently to map out their strategy for getting FOSS users to pay royalties. Revealing the precise figure for the first time, they state that FOSS infringes on no fewer than 235 Microsoft patents.

If Microsoft goes after Linux's user base, I seriously hope that IBM or Linux or BSD or somebody compiles a list of Microsoft infringements and goes after Microsoft's user base. Because Microsoft is totally opening the door on that one. Can you imagine if BSD demanded $1000 in royalties from every Windows user in the world? Microsoft would likely face a class-action lawsuit from millions of their users!

[Skywing]

Honestly, I'd be skeptical that the reporter had a clue enough to really describe what was going on here accurately.  Phrases like "FOSS violates 235 patents" seem to be describing a dangerous lack of understanding on someone's part.

[Warrior]

And furthermore...

Microsoft General Counsel Brad Smith and licensing chief Horacio Gutierrez sat down with Fortune recently to map out their strategy for getting FOSS users to pay royalties. Revealing the precise figure for the first time, they state that FOSS infringes on no fewer than 235 Microsoft patents.

If Microsoft goes after Linux's user base, I seriously hope that IBM or Linux or BSD or somebody compiles a list of Microsoft infringements and goes after Microsoft's user base. Because Microsoft is totally opening the door on that one. Can you imagine if BSD demanded $1000 in royalties from every Windows user in the world? Microsoft would likely face a class-action lawsuit from millions of their users!

I'm pretty sure IBM has cross patent agreements with Microsoft. They will most likely sit this one down.

I think the main person behind this is Ballmer, the guy is a nutcase. The way he rants on and on and how he's hell bent on killing OSS (Which is impossible considering how spread out it is).

Open Source isn't a company Ballmer, you can't send your lawyers marching in.

I thought this would be the dawn of a new Microsoft, an interoperable one (With the recent EU comforming) and the obvious security effort in Vista. However, Ballmer is just a die hard fanatic (comparable to Richard Stallman imho but on opposite sides of the spectrum) who is really ruining the face of Microsoft.

[Ender]

LOL... like Microsoft didn't steal from Apple :P The corporate world is so corrupt. Just give the fucking money to Africa, god damnit.

Anyways, I don't think this is a good idea by Microsoft, for the following reasons:

(1) Microsoft already stole everything from Apple's orchard.
(2) I think the case is hopeless. The menus "Applications," "Places," and "System" in linux guis are as standard as tabbed browsing in browsers. Yet you don't see Mozilla suing Microsoft for tabbed browsing. Furthermore, how else do you make a word processor? and a spreadsheet? and a presentation program like power point? It'slike putting a patent on particle accelators: it's plain stupid. It thwarts advancement in science and technology and puts money in corrupt hands.
(3) I heard that IBM and other companies set aside funds for linux's defense.
(4) Microsoft is showing itself to be desperate and giving linux more public attention.
(5) So many corporations use linux that it would be disastrous if they all of a sudden had to pay royalties... wtf kind of court would allow this?
(6) If Microsoft wins, everyone else loses (royalties from users and distributors). If Microsoft loses, only Microsoft loses.

[rabbit]

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh we don't talk about that

[Warrior]

LOL... like Microsoft didn't steal from Apple

What have they stolen from Apple?

[Ender]

http://digg.com/linux_unix/Linux_Violates_235_Patents_Says_Microsoft

lol! The comments are so hilarious... especially some of the ignorant ones.

[Warrior]

x86] link=topic=9370.msg118898#msg118898 date=1179199854]

LOL... like Microsoft didn't steal from Apple

What have they stolen from Apple?

?

I'd like to see some solid proof here.

[iago]

x86] link=topic=9370.msg118894#msg118894 date=1179196075]
I'm pretty sure IBM has cross patent agreements with Microsoft. They will most likely sit this one down.

However, IBM is heavily invested in Linux, and a blow to Linux would be a blow to IBM.

x86] link=topic=9370.msg118898#msg118898 date=1179199854]
What have they stolen from Apple?

I haven't looked up the patents, so I don't know if any patents have been violated. However, the entire look and feel of Windows 95 is a lot like the Apple of the time, XP was a lot like the apple of its time, and guess what? Vista's look and feel is a lot like the modern Apple stuff. I don't know if any patents have been violated, though.

[Warrior]

x86] link=topic=9370.msg118898#msg118898 date=1179199854]
What have they stolen from Apple?

I haven't looked up the patents, so I don't know if any patents have been violated. However, the entire look and feel of Windows 95 is a lot like the Apple of the time, XP was a lot like the apple of its time, and guess what? Vista's look and feel is a lot like the modern Apple stuff. I don't know if any patents have been violated, though.
[/quote]

Apple never coined UI elegance. They just got it out of the door faster. Some of the features in Vista were present WAY before OSX introduced them. I'm not going to argue who did what first though, it's silly because most of the things (including the alleged patent violations) are evolutionary UI features which should not be patentable and will most likely not hold up in court.

[MyndFyre]

(1) Microsoft already stole everything from Apple's orchard.

That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.  EVER.

(2) I think the case is hopeless. The menus "Applications," "Places," and "System" in linux guis are as standard as tabbed browsing in browsers. Yet you don't see Mozilla suing Microsoft for tabbed browsing. Furthermore, how else do you make a word processor? and a spreadsheet? and a presentation program like power point? It'slike putting a patent on particle accelators: it's plain stupid. It thwarts advancement in science and technology and puts money in corrupt hands.

Tabbed browsing?  Really?  Do you know how long the tabbed document interface has been around?

Microsoft Visual Studio .NET was the first major Microsoft product to use a tabbed document interface that conformed to design guidelines (such as Ctrl+Tab support).  Its final version was released with the .NET Framework 1.0 in Q1 2002 (VS.NET was available in beta much earlier).  When did Firefox incorporate tabbed browsing?  In "Lucia," version 0.3, released October 14, 2002.

So quit bitching about how Microsoft "stole" the idea of using tabs for documents

(3) I heard that IBM and other companies set aside funds for linux's defense.

That's the point of the MS rep.  It's not that free if companies are setting aside these kinds of funds.

(4) Microsoft is showing itself to be desperate and giving linux more public attention.

It's marketing.  Not desparation.  Do you know much about marketing?  Successfully marketing your product means making it look better than the competition, especially when you charge a per-seat licensing fee and your competition does not.

(5) So many corporations use linux that it would be disastrous if they all of a sudden had to pay royalties... wtf kind of court would allow this?

I don't know.... the same court that awarded a woman multiple millions of dollars for spilling coffee on herself?

Realistically, though, the user companies won't have to pay the royalties.  It's the companies that have infringed on the patents.  They won't go back and charge the users post-hoc fees.

(6) If Microsoft wins, everyone else loses (royalties from users and distributors). If Microsoft loses, only Microsoft loses.

So, twenty fat people form a class-action lawsuit against McDonald's for making them fat.  Clearly, these people had a choice about whether to eat McDonald's and chose to do so, perhaps to excess.  If they win, only McDonald's loses.  But if McDonald's wins, everyone else loses.  Therefore, despite McDonald's being in the right, we should rule against them because it's in the more-common good?

[Joe]

Microsoft stole the ability for a window to overlap another window from Apple. I'm not even joking. Look at Windows 1.

[Newby]

x86/64] link=topic=9370.msg118919#msg118919 date=1179208592]
Microsoft stole the ability for a window to overlap another window from Apple. I'm not even joking. Look at Windows 1.

Are you sure this didn't exist way back in the old UNIX days?