Kramer loses it! (Black people are involved.)

[Krazed]

Funny story about a bunch of white people arguing about blacks. They were slaves, sure, go fucking cry about it. Just about every single race/ethnic group was at one point slaves, blacks have just been using it as an excuse for the past few decades now. Fuck it, get over it.

[Furious]

I didn't read through all of this, but I did a good portion.  Just so everyone is clear on this, you all do realize that we didn't go to Africa and just take them right?  Other African tribes enslaved them and sold them to other people.  So in a way - we actually gave the blacks freedom.

[leet_muffin]

The condition of African slaves in the South was often better than that of Irish immigrants in the North.

[Sidoh]

I agree with you, muffin (without the racist comments, mind you).  I don't feel that I should be inclined to feel sympathy for people who think that the suffering of their ancestors is somehow manifesting itself in their lives and forcing them to demand repentance.  I find it annoying that they think we should apologize for something we never did.

The underlying issue here is that black people and minorities are at a socioeconomical disadvantage. But it is ludicrous to say that this disadvantage implies inherent flaws and inferiorities in certain ethnicities. The middle class mires minorities in segregated ghettos and puts them at an educational disadvantage. We, the privileged, are the perpetrators of their socioeconomic disadvantage.

And it's ludicrous to think that something that is (obviously) so natural will dissipate like magic into thin air.  There are universities that accept people with ethnic background other than Caucasian for that simple, useless reason: because they're not white.  It's an unfair world.  People should stop treating it like it is one.  I'm not justifying racism or even arguing for its seemingly universal existence, but you need to realize that bitching like this isn't going to do anything.

I'm sure I'd have a harder time training and qualifying for the Olympic 100 meter dash than the average black person my age, but does that mean that I should lose all hope of ever standing a chance if it interests me?  I realize that this is a genetic predisposition, but is that any less real than a psychological one?  Shouldn't white people get some sort of handicap in running since black people naturally run better?

We stole them away from their homeland, brought them into slavery, and now we impose cultural oppression. We still have yet to make amends and pay the reparations. Affirmative action is not motivated by racism -- it's a means of fixing our mistakes.

No we did not.  I'm tired of hearing this bullshit.  Our ancestors stole them away from their homeland and brought them into slavery.  Hell, what am I talking about?  My ancestors were Native American and Norwegian.  You took away my land too!  I demand that you send me a bag of cookies, Ender.  Now!  You thieving bastard!

Seriously, I tire of hearing about how we need to fix "our" mistakes.  All we need to do is grant equal rights (which we have done) and teach our offspring that these equal rights are correct, human and sensible (which I assume all of us are doing).  I sure as hell am not going to give the first black hobo I find my earnings for the week.  You're more than welcome to.  I'd commend you if you did it, but don't do it for stupid reasoning.  Do it because you care, not because you're sorry for what your great great grandfather did to some arbitrary slave two hundred years ago.

[MyndFyre]

Yea those mean old black people who's ancestors were forced into slavery are soo cruel to those poor poor white people.

You know what?  This is pure unadulterated bullshit. 

My relatives had nothing to do with the slave trade.  My great-grandfather came here to escape the Bolshevik Revolution and had his name changed from "Kostikovich" to "Smith."  My grandfather came here from Germany about 3 years before World War II and went to war against the Nazis, and was part of D-Day.  I'm a third-generation American, none of my immigrant ancestors had money nor were they from imperialist countries involved in the slave trade.

Furthermore, nobody living today has been a slave, nor have they been slavers.  I've never been a slaver.  I've never tried to make someone a slave.  (Well, except that one girl that one night...).  The fact of the matter is, I have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about.  And I don't care what it is that you say, there's nothing that you can do that will make me feel guilty.  Sure, it was shitty that Africans were sold out by their own people and enslaved by a bunch of people.  Yeah, that's really shitty.  But it's certainly nothing that in any way has anything at all to do with me.

Finally, I think it's pretty fucking annoying when people try to make me feel guilty about it.  Guess what - I have the right to speak my mind in any manner I choose.  Free speech doesn't mean that I can say whatever I want, but it means that I have the right to express my ideas and opinions free of persecution.  It means that I should have the right to say whatever I want without offending anyone, because, quite frankly, being offended doesn't make you tangibly hurt.  There is no physical damage, and the offense you perceived was actually only offensive because you have perceived it that way.

Sorry if I sound annoyed and pissed off about this kind of discussion.  It's because these kinds of things piss me off.  I don't have white guilt.  Deal.

[rabbit]

The condition of African slaves in the South was often better than that of Irish immigrants in the North.

Fuck black people.  Where the hell are my reparations?

[CrAz3D]

The underlying issue here is that black people and minorities are at a socioeconomical disadvantage. But it is ludicrous to say that this disadvantage implies inherent flaws and inferiorities in certain ethnicities. The middle class mires minorities in segregated ghettos and puts them at an educational disadvantage. We, the privileged, are the perpetrators of their socioeconomic disadvantage.

Segregation might happen, but thats just because thats how it happens.  I know plenty of black people that haven't fucked up their life and ended up in the ghetto.  They go to school, learn, graduate, and go on to get jobs (not at KFC/McDonalds/BurgerKing).

We stole them away from their homeland, brought them into slavery, and now we impose cultural oppression. We still have yet to make amends and pay the reparations. Affirmative action is not motivated by racism -- it's a means of fixing our mistakes.

Maybe we should send them all back?  Imagine how they'd feel about that.  Also, I believe school dress codes making guys wear pants that go around their waste don't oppress them culturally.
And why ought we to pay reparations?  No one alive today was a slave and I have enslaved no one.



Affirmative action is reverse racism, if you don't see that you're naive

[d&q]

Yea those mean old black people who's ancestors were forced into slavery are soo cruel to those poor poor white people.

Myndfyre's obscenely large post.

I've never seen anyone(black or otherwise) try to force "white guilt" upon anyone else. Also, in this topic, I've only seen where people have said "the blacks should be helped" and other generalizing statements, instead of "those damn crackers should feel guilty".

[Sidoh]

I've never seen anyone(black or otherwise) try to force "white guilt" upon anyone else. Also, in this topic, I've only seen where people have said "the blacks should be helped" and other generalizing statements, instead of "those damn crackers should feel guilty".

I've never been seriously confronted by anyone and told that I need to pay up, but I know it does happen.

What do you mean "the blacks should have helped?"  I'm saying all people who think they should receive payment for something bad that happened to their great great grandfather's former roommate should pull their head out of their ass and realize that the people they're yelling at did nothing wrong.  I'm not accusing any one race; the ones I used were an example.

[Ender]

I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking about the effects of the past on the present. We still haven't fixed the problem. It's not a debt; it's a problem that exists today that has not been properly addressed. Minorities are segregated and disadvantaged. Affirmative action is one way to fix this. At the heart of all solutions, however, is integration. Affirmative action integrates different ethnicities with different backgrounds in colleges. We should be doing this for compulsory education as well. Yes, there are programs like METCO -- but there is still tacit segregation in schools, according to lunchtime tables, peer groups, etc. Furthermore, there is undeniable evidence that minorities take less advanced classes than others. Do you think this is because they do not have the same intellectual potential? That is absurd... it's because they grow up very differently and thus have a different outlook on life.

It's not so much that disadvantaged people don't have a way of getting into college. It's that they grow up in completely different conditions than we do so we can't relate what we would do to what they would do. Growing up privileged gives people a different view on life. Whereas the people in ghettos may worry about survival, we worry about grades.

It is very dangerous to use "we" in argument. By "we", as I mentioned before, I mean what I think of as "privileged people". By "privileged" I mean people who don't have to worry about primitive needs such as food and housing, and educational disadvantages such as a segregated environment, feeling alien when going to school, no internet or computers, etc.

Furthermore, I regret generalizing all minorities to be unprivileged. This is obviously not the case. I'm speaking about the majority.

Remember to refrain from ad hominem attacks.

[iago]

Affirmative action is one way to fix this.

Does it really fix anything?  I think that it creates more animosity from a lot of people who see it as "dey took our jobs!!"

Remember to refrain from ad hominem attacks.

Ender supports clubbing baby eskimos.  Why should we trust him?

[Ender]

Affirmative action is one way to fix this.

Does it really fix anything?  I think that it creates more animosity from a lot of people who see it as "dey took our jobs!!"

Life isn't fair. Yet life would be more fair if certain groups were not at an inherent disadvantage. Integrating the living environments of privileged groups and disadvantaged groups would make a lot of progress. Sure, it wouldn't be fair to some people, but life isn't fair! Whatever we do, nothing will ever be completely fair; progress can be thought of as a catch-22 in which we must always take the least evil option.

[CrAz3D]

Life isn't fair. Yet life would be more fair if certain groups were not at an inherent disadvantage.

So these people are naturally disadvantaged?  So since its natural that they can't do as well as "we" can, they've inferior?  Are you saying affirmative action is there so we can feel good about helping out the inferior races?  If so, then I support it because they can't help themselves if they're inferior.
But I don't believe that they are disadvantaged currently.  I believe everyone can make their life better by working hard to better themselves, WITHOUT government "hand ups"

but life isn't fair!

So then we OBVIOUSLY shouldn't care whether or not they are at a disadvantage, DUH

[Sidoh]

Life isn't fair. Yet life would be more fair if certain groups were not at an inherent disadvantage. Integrating the living environments of privileged groups and disadvantaged groups would make a lot of progress. Sure, it wouldn't be fair to some people, but life isn't fair! Whatever we do, nothing will ever be completely fair; progress can be thought of as a catch-22 in which we must always take the least evil option.

Which is exactly why I wish you would have read my last post.  I don't care if they're at a disadvantage (unless it's because we haven't granted this person equal rights).  I'm at a disadvantage for several things as well, but that doesn't mean that kicking and screaming will do anything about it.

[Ender]

Practically, when we try to improve conditions in America, we tend to the plurality of disadvantaged groups. You're in college, so I'm pretty sure you're not in that plurality, even though you may have had some disadvantages. I'm arguing that the people in ghettos who must deal with financial, educational, and general environmental disadvantages are the plurality. Furthermore, we logically tend to the youth as well. So the target group should be the population of youth living in ghettos.