Vegan

[CrAz3D]

Hurting others doesn't cost me.
Like you said, it's subjective.

Hurting other people might benefit me ... greatly.

[Rule]

Hurting others doesn't cost me.
Like you said, it's subjective.

Hurting other people might benefit me ... greatly.

Ok.  Well, hurting others would cost me.  If hurting others doesn't cost you, why don't you do it?

[iago]

Wow, CrAz3d, that's the stupidest conclusion I've heard yet. And that's pretty impressive!

I consider others' lives and happiness, including animals, when I look at costs and benefits.

Costs and benefits work, it's what all of our lives and choices are based on. Everything, whether you realize it or not, is a choice based on costs and benefits.

The only time you wouldn't include other people in your analysis is if you're a totally self-centered person who doesn't care about anybody but himself. Personally, that's not how I am.

[Sidoh]

Hurting others doesn't cost me.
Like you said, it's subjective.

Hurting other people might benefit me ... greatly.

Your argument against the cost/benefit framework for decision making is still inapplicable.  It may sometimes requires the inclusion of subjective arguments, but that doesn't mean it can't be used to arrive at reasonable and often agreeable conclusions.  The "best" conclusion is just as subjective as the premises used to arrive there.  and as iago said, it's the only way decisions are made.

wouldn't

Hehehe.  I was having dinner with a few of my nerdy friends who read xkcd and a guy I met last semester who's a technical journalism major or something (math-phobe, hates complex and confusing things, etc) and I laughed at how many times we referenced xkcd.  We were talking about the mobius strip one where he references Escher and we had to fold a napkin up to show him what a mobius strip was. :)

[CrAz3D]

Wow, CrAz3d, that's the stupidest conclusion I've heard yet. And that's pretty impressive!

I consider others' lives and happiness, including animals, when I look at costs and benefits.

Costs and benefits work, it's what all of our lives and choices are based on. Everything, whether you realize it or not, is a choice based on costs and benefits.

The only time you wouldn't include other people in your analysis is if you're a totally self-centered person who doesn't care about anybody but himself. Personally, that's not how I am.

Who says I'm excluding people from my analysis?  Harming people that harm me (by locking them up let's say) helps me, but harms them.  The benefit is infinitley greater to the cost, in my perspective.

[Rule]

Wow, CrAz3d, that's the stupidest conclusion I've heard yet. And that's pretty impressive!

I consider others' lives and happiness, including animals, when I look at costs and benefits.

Costs and benefits work, it's what all of our lives and choices are based on. Everything, whether you realize it or not, is a choice based on costs and benefits.

The only time you wouldn't include other people in your analysis is if you're a totally self-centered person who doesn't care about anybody but himself. Personally, that's not how I am.

Who says I'm excluding people from my analysis?  Harming people that harm me (by locking them up let's say) helps me, but harms them.  The benefit is infinitley greater to the cost, in my perspective.

THEN WHY DON'T YOU DO IT?

[CrAz3D]

Society already does it for me.  It's called jail/prison/execution.
It benefits me but definitely harms those in the system (all for the best) much to the dismay of many punishment opponents in society.

[Rule]

Society already does it for me.  It's called jail/prison/execution.
It benefits me but definitely harms those in the system (all for the best) much to the dismay of many punishment opponents in society.

Then explain what's wrong with cost/benefit analysis?  You were implying if you did everything to benefit yourself, it would hurt other people, so cost/benefit analysis doesn't always lead you to the best decisions.

Is there something you aren't doing but would benefit you if you did do it? 

[iago]

Who says I'm excluding people from my analysis?  Harming people that harm me (by locking them up let's say) helps me, but harms them.  The benefit is infinitley greater to the cost, in my perspective.

If you lock up your enemies, you might go to jail for kidnapping (or whatever that's officially called). Or, they might overpower you and injure you. Those are risks. So I wouldn't say it's infinitely greater.

But really, what's the benefit of them going to jail? The benefit to you is that you've got your revenge, and you feel slightly justified. The cost to them is that they lose their life, freedom, well being, possibly their family, friends, and way of life, among other things.

So is jailing somebody an acceptable activity? I'm not so sure. I don't think the penal system works at all.

But this is all really a subject for another thread. We've gone way off topic, and I'll just split it if this continues.

[Rule]

But really, what's the benefit of them going to jail? The benefit to you is that you've got your revenge, and you feel slightly justified. The cost to them is that they lose their life, freedom, well being, possibly their family, friends, and way of life, among other things.

So is jailing somebody an acceptable activity? I'm not so sure. I don't think the penal system works at all.

But this is all really a subject for another thread. We've gone way off topic, and I'll just split it if this continues.

Yeah, you took the bait.  Don't let the argument shift.  We were debating whether cost-benefit decisions are in the best interests of the decision maker. 

[iago]

But really, what's the benefit of them going to jail? The benefit to you is that you've got your revenge, and you feel slightly justified. The cost to them is that they lose their life, freedom, well being, possibly their family, friends, and way of life, among other things.

So is jailing somebody an acceptable activity? I'm not so sure. I don't think the penal system works at all.

But this is all really a subject for another thread. We've gone way off topic, and I'll just split it if this continues.

Yeah, you took the bait.  Don't let the argument shift.  We were debating whether cost-benefit decisions are in the best interests of the decision maker. 

Not quite, that's still a step back. :)

[Rule]

But really, what's the benefit of them going to jail? The benefit to you is that you've got your revenge, and you feel slightly justified. The cost to them is that they lose their life, freedom, well being, possibly their family, friends, and way of life, among other things.

So is jailing somebody an acceptable activity? I'm not so sure. I don't think the penal system works at all.

But this is all really a subject for another thread. We've gone way off topic, and I'll just split it if this continues.

Yeah, you took the bait.  Don't let the argument shift.  We were debating whether cost-benefit decisions are in the best interests of the decision maker. 

Not quite, that's still a step back. :)

I don't think so:

Ok, I'll make sure to disregard all other people from now on to better myself.  K thanks bye.

Crazed, why don't you do this?  If there is no cost (to you) for doing this, and it's all benefit, explain why you don't do this?

[Ender]

Hurting others doesn't cost me.
Like you said, it's subjective.

Hurting other people might benefit me ... greatly.

Do you realize how evil this sounds? Take a step back from the blackboard and think about what you've wrote.

By this logic, you should be stabbing people on their walk home and stealing their groceries.

[Rule]

Hurting others doesn't cost me.
Like you said, it's subjective.

Hurting other people might benefit me ... greatly.

Do you realize how evil this sounds? Take a step back from the blackboard and think about what you've wrote.

By this logic, you should be stabbing people on their walk home and stealing their groceries.

Still a side argument.  I don't think he understands cost/benefit analysis.  He is suggesting that if he were to behave by cost benefit analysis, he would go out and do a bunch of crummy things because that would be in his best interests.  But he doesn't do those things because they COST him more than they BENEFIT him; that's what he doesn't understand.  There is no other logical reason for not doing those things.

[Ender]

Yeah, I know :P I was thinking about posting that, but I wanted to have a little fun.